un8- wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:05 pm
Also, I reiterate, to attain sotapanna phala you need jhana, as you can't give up fetters without jhana. You don't need jhana for sotapanna magga though.
I was reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's "
Investigating the Dhamma", found an interesting point:
"The contention between the two parties in the contemporary debate might be recapitulated thus: Those who assert that jhána is necessary for the attainment of stream-entry usually insist that a mundane (or form-sphere) jhána must be secured before one can enter the supramundane path. Those who defend the dry-insight approach hold that a mundane jhána is not indispensable, that a lower degree of concentration suffices as a basis for the cultivation of insight and the attainment of the path.
Both parties usually agree that jhána is part of the actual path experience itself. The issue that divides them is whether the concentration in the preliminary portion of the path must include a jhána.
To decide this question, I wish to query the texts themselves and ask whether they show us instances of stream-enterers who are not attainers of the jhánas. Now while there are no suttas which flatly state that it is possible to become a stream-enterer without having attained at least the first jhána, I think there are several that imply as much."
"(1) Let us start with the Cúladukkhakkhandha Sutta (MN No. 14). The sutta opens when the Sakyan lay disciple Mahánáma, identified by the commentary as a once-returner, comes to the Buddha and presents him with a personal problem.
Although he has long understood, through the guidance of the teaching, that greed, hatred, and delusion are corruptions of the mind (cittassa upakkilesa), such states still arise in him and overpower his mind. This troubles him and makes him wonder what the underlying cause might be. In his reply (M I 91) the Buddha says: “Even though a noble disciple has clearly seen with perfect wisdom that sensual pleasures give little satisfaction and are fraught with suffering and misery , rife with greater danger, if he does not achieve a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or something more peaceful than this, then he is not beyond being enticed by sensual pleasures.” The first part of this statement implies that the subject is at least a stream-enterer, for he is referred to as a “noble disciple” (ariya-sávaka). Though the term ariya-sávaka is occasionally used in a loose sense that need not be taken to imply attainment of stream-entry , here the expression “seeing with perfect wisdom” seems to establish his identity as at least a stream-enterer. Yet the second part of the statement implies he does not possess even the first jhána, for the phrase used to describe what he lacks (“a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states”) precisely echoes the wording of the basic formula for the first jhána. The state “more peaceful than that” would, of course, be the higher jhánas.""
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