Questions on Sotapanna

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Ontheway
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Questions on Sotapanna

Post by Ontheway »

Hi all :anjali:

I have some questions about Sotapanna.

1) How to know if someone attained Cula-Sotapanna or a Sotapanna? What would be their differences?

2) If someone attained Stream Entry stage, what are the possible and impossible in terms of morality?

3) If someone was checking the "Mirror of Dhamma" and found that he/she got all the things required. Is there a chance that he/she maybe just overestimate him-/herself?

4) Is Jhana attainment a MUST for attaining Sotapanna Phala? I saw some threads in this forum and it seems there is no definite conclusion so far. Is there a Sutta that gives a conclusive answer on this matter?

Thank you.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
pegembara
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by pegembara »

Everything that arises will change and eventually cease.
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Monks, forms are inconstant, changeable, alterable. Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
...
...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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nirodh27
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by nirodh27 »

1) viewtopic.php?p=408464#p408464

2) Same post of Santa.

3) He will soon discover, if you have doubt about the Path and the teachings, you are not a stream-winner. So one can be convinced at a moment, and then realize he was not. Better not to be attached to the attainment, which btw should be seen simply as a reference point, not an "inherent quality" that you get at a specified point.

4) In my opinion, fist Jhana is not a deep absorption state, but an U-turn from sensuality to renunciation/seclusion and one is not devoid of Jhana by doing many things:
In AN1.394-57449, one is said to be “not devoid of jhāna (arittajjhāna) if for just the time of a finger
snap” one
• cultivates any of the four jhānas,
• cultivates liberation of mind by any of the four brahma·vihāras (divine-abidings),
• abides as an observer of the body, feelings, mind, or phenomena—i.e. practises any of the
four satipaṭṭhānas (establishments of mindfulness),
• generates any of the four sammappadhānas (proper diligence),
• cultivates any of the four iddhipādas (bases of accomplishment),
• cultivates any of the five indriyas (faculties), or

• does any of many other things, including cultivating asubha·saññā (recognition of unattract-
iveness), maraṇa·saññā (recognition of death), and anatta·saññā (recognition of not-self). (Bhikku Khemara)
so the stream-enterer will surely have a sense of what Jhana is and had it in some form, but to really work and have stable Jhana, you will have to be between the once-returner and non-returner, since the work of pre-first jhana and first jhana is the actual abandoning of sensuality by the analisys of the drawbacks to arrive at the point of abandoning it, so I think it cannot be completed in lay-life, except for those lay-followers that have a lot of favourable conditions, probably in older age and with an almost-monk lifestyle. Lay people can still benefit from the Jhana method, but they will not work as intended since the state/the ability/the mindset to do jhana will be gradually lost when you talk to people and engage in the world again (i have the MA sutta about this, but I'm sure it is there also a parallel in the Pali Nikayas).

If you look at MN14 it is believed by the commentarial tradition that Mahanama is a once-returner and what lacks to abandon lay-life is precisely the ability to do Jhana like the two faces of the same coin. Thanissaro correctly says that in the suttas nowhere it is stated that it is an once-returner, but even if it a speculation of the commentarial tradition it have some sense. Manahama have already no doubts about what is the allure/drawback/escape about sensual pleasures and that delusion is a defilement of the mind so it can be inferred that it is already beyond doubt about the teaching, but he didn't developed Jhanas in a formal way with the actual intent of ending sensuality.

The relevant part deserves to be read in its entirety:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Sakyans at Kapilavatthu in the Banyan Park. Then Mahānāma the Sakyan1 went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, “For a long time now, lord, I have understood the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One thus: ‘Greed is a defilement of the mind; aversion is a defilement of the mind; delusion is a defilement of the mind.’ Yet even though I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One that greed is a defilement of the mind, aversion is a defilement of the mind, delusion is a defilement of the mind, there are still times when the quality of greed invades my mind and remains, when the quality of aversion… the quality of delusion invades my mind and remains. The thought occurs to me: What quality is unabandoned within me so that there are times when the quality of greed invades my mind and remains, when the quality of aversion… the quality of delusion invades my mind and remains?”

“Mahānāma, that very quality [i.e., greed, aversion, or delusion] is what is unabandoned within you so that there are times when the quality of greed… the quality of aversion… the quality of delusion invades your mind and remains.2 For if that quality were abandoned in you, you would not live the household life and would not partake of sensuality. It’s because that quality is not abandoned in you that you live the household life and partake of sensuality.

“Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still—if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that3—he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.

“I myself, before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it had come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality. But when I saw as it had come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN14.html
Mr. Seek
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by Mr. Seek »

The correct answers to these questions lie beyond words and designations. If you want to enter the stream, stop wanting to enter it. Stop assuming that there is a you, stop assuming that there is a stream, stop assuming that you can enter the stream. Stop assuming things. Stop craving for spiritual achievements. Stop clinging to doctrines. Just stop, and rest.

Even if we gave you answers that made sense, there'd still be an opportunity for doubt to arise in you. So examine this on your own is what I'll suggest. Face the wall and ponder with discernment. With metta.
un8-
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by un8- »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:41 am Hi all :anjali:

I have some questions about Sotapanna.

1) How to know if someone attained Cula-Sotapanna or a Sotapanna? What would be their differences?

2) If someone attained Stream Entry stage, what are the possible and impossible in terms of morality?

3) If someone was checking the "Mirror of Dhamma" and found that he/she got all the things required. Is there a chance that he/she maybe just overestimate him-/herself?

4) Is Jhana attainment a MUST for attaining Sotapanna Phala? I saw some threads in this forum and it seems there is no definite conclusion so far. Is there a Sutta that gives a conclusive answer on this matter?

Thank you.
1) The pre-requisite for becoming a faith or dhamma follower is hearing the true dhamma with proper attention. The two key mechanisms is true dhamma and proper attention (yoniso manasikara). That means if you believe in counterfeit dhamma you aren't a faith/dhamma follower, and also if you have the wrong interpretation. Also if you do hear the true dhamma but don't have proper attention, you won't attain anything either. Many so called Buddhists have wrong views from counterfeit dhamma, this is the primary motivation behind people returning to early buddhism. However interpretation is also important as if you don't know what yoniso manasikara is then you can't fulfil the second part of the requirement.

2) They have perfect virtue leading to samadhi. Meaning they're not perfect saints but their virtue is good enough to attain Samadhi. You can't attain samadhi if you're arguing with people. For the average normal person in a developed country, the biggest hurdle is right speech.

3) Yes definitely, because of point number 1

4) Yes. To confirm the dhamma you need to overcome the 5 hindrances, and in the suttas there is no state between the 5 hindrances and jhanas, there is no "momentary" concentration. Also several suttas say jhana is needed to give up fetters and sotapanna phala means the first 3 fetters are given up.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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nirodh27
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by nirodh27 »

Mr. Seek wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:52 am The correct answers to these questions lie beyond words and designations. If you want to enter the stream, stop wanting to enter it. Stop assuming that there is a you, stop assuming that there is a stream, stop assuming that you can enter the stream. Stop assuming things. Stop craving for spiritual achievements. Stop clinging to doctrines. Just stop, and rest.
Hi Mr. Seek,

Sorry to say, but this seems the opposite of the approach of the Buddha, which the main motivation for striving (and he strived a lot) was the unsatisfaction with his own mental states.

Spiritual achievements are a good thing if correctly understood and having the correct relationship to them is part of the path. Effort is a good thing when there's right view. The Buddha praised the monk that doesn't feel superior to his comrades when first Jhana is attained by him, but nonethless teached and urged for people arrive at that point by effort. The same for stream-entry with the example of the seven grains of Dukkha vs the mountain of Dukkha. The Buddha's last words:
Let the Dharma and the discipline that I have taught you be your teacher. All sankharas pass away. Strive on, untiringly."
Not to say that rest doesn't have a role, but the Buddha actually rested only when Jhana was attained after a lot of effort when all the cows were safely under control. Resting before it is time seems a dangerous thing to suggest.
Ontheway
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by Ontheway »

First of all, thank you for all the replies.
:anjali:

Hi Mr Seek,
So according to your comment above, in order to reach Sotapanna, we should "Stop clinging to doctrines. Just stop, and rest."...

So, I should put away all my knowledge about Buddhism, stop practicing, and stop having Right View? :?:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by Ontheway »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:23 am 1) viewtopic.php?p=408464#p408464
Thank you for this link. :bow:
It answers my question on Cula Sotapanna.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
un8-
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by un8- »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:43 am
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:23 am 1) viewtopic.php?p=408464#p408464
Thank you for this link. :bow:
It answers my question on Cula Sotapanna.
It's a little wrong. A cula-sotapanna is not an ariya-to-be, he is already an Ariya.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:54 am ...
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:47 am ...
I'm a simple man. I see a person who is thirsty, I offer him a bottle of water. But I can't explain what the water molecules are structured like, or what's the pH of the water.

SN 1.1 is pretty good and addresses this.

With metta.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by confusedlayman »

Have u seen nibbana? If yes u are sota.. if doubt then ur not
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

All of these suttas ( sn 25. 1 - 10 Okkanta-samyutta — Entering ) show a way to streamentry. They all share the instructions to with conviction understand the anicca of all phenomena. There are those who understand anicca as an idea. There are those who understand anicca as an experience. When you correctly understand (perceive, see directly as an experience), anicca, you are on the right path. When you continuously, again and again, concentrate and turn the attention to the continual flux of these phenomena, the constant change, directly knowing anicca (thus you train yourself), a time will come when there is a glimpse of nibbana and the scales tip in the favour of the goal and progress is irrevocable. You will know this from direct experience. The defilements fall away, one by one, and you become incapable of performing evil deeds. So, to get there, continue to do good things, don't do bad things and purify the mind.
sakyan
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by sakyan »

1) How to know if someone attained Cula-Sotapanna or a Sotapanna? What would be their differences?
The Buddha didn't mentioned about cula-sotapanna but he mentioned Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower who are the ariyas who have 5 faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom developed to a bare minimum extent and have by faith or by pondering through wisdom accepted that every single conditioned dhamma is impermanent and changeable.
2)If someone attained Stream Entry stage, what are the possible and impossible in terms of morality?
As per my knowledge from Suttas, Dhammapada commenteries and from reputed Thai Ajahns, A Sotapanna will not break 5 precepts intentionally even at the cost of their own life. However the Ratana Sutta mentions that a Sotapanna will not commit 6 major wrong-doings and that doesn't mean a Sotapanna would intentionally break any of the 5 precepts.
3) If someone was checking the "Mirror of Dhamma" and found that he/she got all the things required. Is there a chance that he/she maybe just overestimate him-/herself?
Dhamma mirror is already very clear and emphasises on experential confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha along with other points. Here experential is the main part, Experential directly means clearly knowing and seeing that 'whatever has a nature to arise has a nature to cease' and also a Sotapanna would never assume 5 agreegates as Self, One can mentally check one's own mind for this assumption as 'Self' to verify the truth.
4) Is Jhana attainment a MUST for attaining Sotapanna Phala? I saw some threads in this forum and it seems there is no definite conclusion so far. Is there a Sutta that gives a conclusive answer on this matter?
As far as I know, Jhana attainment is not a MUST, A mind freed from 5 hindrances is however required to attain Sotapanna-phala. To be more precise the 7 factors of enlightenment and their development and cultivation is required to attain the fruit of streamentry.
Ontheway
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Re:

Post by Ontheway »

sunnat wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:52 am All of these suttas ( sn 25. 1 - 10 Okkanta-samyutta — Entering ) show a way to streamentry. They all share the instructions to with conviction understand the anicca of all phenomena. There are those who understand anicca as an idea. There are those who understand anicca as an experience. When you correctly understand (perceive, see directly as an experience), anicca, you are on the right path. When you continuously, again and again, concentrate and turn the attention to the continual flux of these phenomena, the constant change, directly knowing anicca (thus you train yourself), a time will come when there is a glimpse of nibbana and the scales tip in the favour of the goal and progress is irrevocable. You will know this from direct experience. The defilements fall away, one by one, and you become incapable of performing evil deeds. So, to get there, continue to do good things, don't do bad things and purify the mind.
Thanks for the advice.
Yes, I believe by continuosly reviewing those teachings will eventually being us to that state of realization.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: Questions on Sotapanna

Post by Ontheway »

sakyan wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:11 am
1) How to know if someone attained Cula-Sotapanna or a Sotapanna? What would be their differences?
The Buddha didn't mentioned about cula-sotapanna but he mentioned Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower who are the ariyas who have 5 faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom developed to a bare minimum extent and have by faith or by pondering through wisdom accepted that every single conditioned dhamma is impermanent and changeable.
2)If someone attained Stream Entry stage, what are the possible and impossible in terms of morality?
As per my knowledge from Suttas, Dhammapada commenteries and from reputed Thai Ajahns, A Sotapanna will not break 5 precepts intentionally even at the cost of their own life. However the Ratana Sutta mentions that a Sotapanna will not commit 6 major wrong-doings and that doesn't mean a Sotapanna would intentionally break any of the 5 precepts.
3) If someone was checking the "Mirror of Dhamma" and found that he/she got all the things required. Is there a chance that he/she maybe just overestimate him-/herself?
Dhamma mirror is already very clear and emphasises on experential confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha along with other points. Here experential is the main part, Experential directly means clearly knowing and seeing that 'whatever has a nature to arise has a nature to cease' and also a Sotapanna would never assume 5 agreegates as Self, One can mentally check one's own mind for this assumption as 'Self' to verify the truth.
4) Is Jhana attainment a MUST for attaining Sotapanna Phala? I saw some threads in this forum and it seems there is no definite conclusion so far. Is there a Sutta that gives a conclusive answer on this matter?
As far as I know, Jhana attainment is not a MUST, A mind freed from 5 hindrances is however required to attain Sotapanna-phala. To be more precise the 7 factors of enlightenment and their development and cultivation is required to attain the fruit of streamentry.
Thanks for the information.

Regarding the last answer you gave, "Jhana attainment is not a MUST, A mind freed from 5 hindrances is however required to attain Sotapanna-phala."

Wasn't that only by reaching First Jhana can the mind be freed from those five hindrances?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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