Teachings and teachers

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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bodom
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Re: Teachings and teachers

Post by bodom »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:51 pm
bodom wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:49 am This short and excellent little book below shows how to keep an open mind when practicing with different teachers and meditation techniques without becoming doubtful about the different methods:
Thanks for that. Ven Aggacitta visited here about ten years ago, and he was great. In one dhamma talk he led us through all possible variations on mettā practice (thinking of specific people, expanding one's focus in various ways, etc), then passed around the microphone asking us to describe our experience, and which variation seemed to work best. It's an important thing to realise that:
1. You share certain preferences and tendencies with some other people.
2. You don't share certain preferences and tendencies with some other people.

Understanding that is very helpful in cutting through the nonsense one sometimes sees... :tongue:

The monastic teachers I have spent time tend to be similar, though perhaps not quite so eloquent. They've spent time trying out these variations: Mahasi, Pa Auk, Goenka, etc. They'll tell you what they think will work best for you, but are happy to answer questions about anything.

On the other hand, I do think it's best to initially pick something that seems to be helpful, and stick with it for a time (maybe a year or so, certainly months), not flitting about from week to week.

:heart:
Mike
Agree.

I tend to follow the meditation instructions of Venerable Analayo these days and he has drawn inspiration from Mahasi, Goenka, Buddhadasa and Godwin Samararatne.

I like how he gives general instructions and emphasizes finding what works best for oneself in the practice while keeping an open mind to other interpretations.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
justindesilva
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Re: Teachings and teachers

Post by justindesilva »

Mangaka wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:47 am Hi everyone,
I would like to ask you about teachers and their teachings. It is okay if one listens more than one teacher (if their teaching is same or at least similar) or it would be inappropriate? If there is novice in training for bhikkhu, then there is only one teacher, right? But what about lay followers, is it same?
Lord budda advised ven Ananda and his desciples that when lord budda is no more the damma will take his place.
Here we got to understand that damma explains the path to nibbana is arya ashtanga marga. In oga tarana sutta lord budda explains that he overcame samsara by crossings four tides as kama oga, bhavaoga, ditti oga and avidya oga , and means the path is arya ashtanga oga.
Here I wish to request my damma friends to understand these four ogas or tides with a special emphasis to kama oga. Kamaoga is important as it is overcoming our own desires and is well explained in sabbasava sutta. Kama oga is also that elecrifying sensuality of sex and sensuality which shadows our samsaric life if not identified and taken care of as taints.
The teacher is our own self with yoniso manasikara
Ontheway
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Re: Teachings and teachers

Post by Ontheway »

Hi, Bhante Pannadhammika.
Quote in red:
1. Sutta: There's in-between rebirth, Theravada: there's no in between rebirth. (Instantaneous rebirth)

Both Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttanta and Pathamabhava Suttanta says a lot about rebirth matter. Plus, none of the Suttas taught that there is "Antarabhava". "Antaraparinibbayi" already explained in the Atthakatha and it is not to be understood as a "intermediate being" or Bardo. It has something to do with "Citta Vithi" mindstream of the Attainer. Such view of "Antarabhava" was originated among Pubbaseliya and Sammitiya sects and was refuted by Theravadin during the Third Council.

2. Sutta: One doesn't end suffering without experiencing all kammas (can be watered down kamma, also kamma meant to produce rebirth can be transformed to less for stream winners onwards), Theravada: defunct kamma.

This is not what I learned and understood, or at least what I understood from Ven. K Sri Dhammananda Mahanayaka Thera in Malaysia. The case of Arahant Angulimala Thera demonstrated this. By misreading the Suttas and interpret as such "One doesn't end suffering without experiencing all kammas", that would be the view of Jains. If that is the case, there will be no point in exerting Effort to attain Arahantship, Anagami-ship, Sakadagami-ship, or even Sotapanna; since one need to "experience all kammas before gaining Nibbana".

3. Sutta: There's wrong mindfulness, Theravada: Mindfulness is classified under wholesome mental formations.

Theravada don't deny that there is wrong Mindfulness, nor does it categories wrong Mindfulness under wholesome Kamma. Only rightly developed mindfulness leading to wholesome state, can be categorised under wholesome Kamma.

Isn't the Bodhisatta in Jatakas (birth stories) frequently fulfill Dana, Sila, and Bhavana, which led Him reborn to human existence, Deva realms, and even Brahma realms?

4. Sutta: Arahants and non-returners all have Jhanas, Theravada: possible to become arahants without Jhanas.

Atthakatha explained this. I need not to add more.

Just drop this here:
"This is the fundamental argument of those who contend that the jhanas are necessary for attaining Nibbāna: that is, that it is the Jhana that is effecting the attaining. This is an incorrect perception: it is the insight into impermanance and the letting go that is the fundamental tool for attaining Nibbāna."

I'm not a fan of Sauntrantika sect. To me, this sect are proned to personal interpretation and creating new doctrines from time to time. But I respect your choice, as how I respect my Christian & Muslim neighbors.

I will just stick to Pali Tipitaka and continue the Path.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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SDC
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Re: Teachings and teachers

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:27 pm
Listening can be extremely helpful, but in my experience interacting is where you really get value from an expert. A few minutes of discussion (or other communication) with someone you trust can save a lot of time and/or rescue you from a dead end. We see this often in the stories in the suttas, where the Buddha, or someone else, gives just the right teaching at the right time.
Absolutely.

What I don’t agree with (which I’m sure we’ve discussed before) is this popular notion that, instead of seeking a teacher for the purposes of gaining clarification as to what you need to do to train and discern, you must instead have a teacher to interpret experiences and determine progress. Direct knowledge is exactly that; it is knowing for sure; and not because someone confirmed it for you, but because you have been cultivating a goal that has been clearly described (“another’s utterance”), and now it is being directly known for what it is.

A teacher’s guidance is the refining of the idea of what right view should mean in the experience; a view that will emerge as a result of virtue, restraint and training. They can assist on the front end of the work to ensure that what has been described in the suttas has been understood in a way that is practical, but this idea that a teacher is required in order to confirm development is a very dangerous practice. They clarify the benchmark, but only you can know for sure if you’ve reached it. If you don’t know for sure you should go back and refine the idea of the benchmark further because it isn’t clear enough. It hasn’t been made available, so go back and clarify what it is you’re trying to discern, and make sure the prerequisites are being properly developed, i.e. make sure the conditions for the view are available, not just theorizing what the view is supposed to be. Nothing to be ashamed of; MN 117: “Thus these three states run and circle around right view, that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.” It takes work, effort and repetition to make strides.

The right idea from the right teacher from the right tradition will only get you so far - if you don’t apply it, vet it, and work it through, it is worthless.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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mikenz66
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Re: Teachings and teachers

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:21 pm What I don’t agree with (which I’m sure we’ve discussed before) is this popular notion that, instead of seeking a teacher for the purposes of gaining clarification as to what you need to do to train and discern, you must instead have a teacher to interpret experiences and determine progress.
No disagreement from me. But a key part of "gaining clarification as to what you need to do", is "gaining clarification as to where you are going wrong". Once I got past the starting issues, it was the latter that was the real value of my interactions with various teachers.

Experienced teachers know the pitfalls. They've been there, and seen many others who have been there.

:heart:
Mike
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Teachings and teachers

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:54 pm Hi, Bhante Pannadhammika.
Quote in red:
1. Sutta: There's in-between rebirth, Theravada: there's no in between rebirth. (Instantaneous rebirth)

Both Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttanta and Pathamabhava Suttanta says a lot about rebirth matter. Plus, none of the Suttas taught that there is "Antarabhava". "Antaraparinibbayi" already explained in the Atthakatha and it is not to be understood as a "intermediate being" or Bardo. It has something to do with "Citta Vithi" mindstream of the Attainer. Such view of "Antarabhava" was originated among Pubbaseliya and Sammitiya sects and was refuted by Theravadin during the Third Council.

2. Sutta: One doesn't end suffering without experiencing all kammas (can be watered down kamma, also kamma meant to produce rebirth can be transformed to less for stream winners onwards), Theravada: defunct kamma.

This is not what I learned and understood, or at least what I understood from Ven. K Sri Dhammananda Mahanayaka Thera in Malaysia. The case of Arahant Angulimala Thera demonstrated this. By misreading the Suttas and interpret as such "One doesn't end suffering without experiencing all kammas", that would be the view of Jains. If that is the case, there will be no point in exerting Effort to attain Arahantship, Anagami-ship, Sakadagami-ship, or even Sotapanna; since one need to "experience all kammas before gaining Nibbana".

3. Sutta: There's wrong mindfulness, Theravada: Mindfulness is classified under wholesome mental formations.

Theravada don't deny that there is wrong Mindfulness, nor does it categories wrong Mindfulness under wholesome Kamma. Only rightly developed mindfulness leading to wholesome state, can be categorised under wholesome Kamma.

Isn't the Bodhisatta in Jatakas (birth stories) frequently fulfill Dana, Sila, and Bhavana, which led Him reborn to human existence, Deva realms, and even Brahma realms?

4. Sutta: Arahants and non-returners all have Jhanas, Theravada: possible to become arahants without Jhanas.

Atthakatha explained this. I need not to add more.

Just drop this here:
"This is the fundamental argument of those who contend that the jhanas are necessary for attaining Nibbāna: that is, that it is the Jhana that is effecting the attaining. This is an incorrect perception: it is the insight into impermanance and the letting go that is the fundamental tool for attaining Nibbāna."

I'm not a fan of Sauntrantika sect. To me, this sect are proned to personal interpretation and creating new doctrines from time to time. But I respect your choice, as how I respect my Christian & Muslim neighbors.

I will just stick to Pali Tipitaka and continue the Path.
As mentioned, Early Buddhism position should use sutta sources to confirm or deny instead of later commentaries. And it's not modelling after Sauntrantika.

1. https://suttacentral.net/sn44.9/en/suja ... ript=latin
“But when someone who is attached has laid down this body and has not been reborn in one of the realms, what does Master Gotama say is their fuel then?”

“When someone who is attached has laid down this body, Vaccha, and has not been reborn in one of the realms, I say they’re fueled by craving. For craving is their fuel then.”
Very hard to not see this as evidences for in-between rebirths.

https://suttacentral.net/an7.55/en/suja ... pt=latin
Take a mendicant who practices like this: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. …’ With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished between one life and the next. Suppose you struck an iron pot that had been heated all day. Any spark that flew off and floated away would be extinguished just before landing. In the same way, a mendicant who practices like this … With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished between one life and the next.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.131/en/suj ... ript=latin
What person has given up the lower fetters and the fetters for getting reborn, but not the fetters for getting a continued existence? One extinguished between one life and the next.
AN4.131 also describes the non returner due to be reborn in the pure abodes as
What person has given up the lower fetters, but not the fetters for getting reborn, or the fetters for getting a continued existence? One heading upstream, going to the Akaniṭṭha realm.
So one really is backed to the position of there's something in-between.

2. https://suttacentral.net/an10.217/en/su ... ript=latin
“Mendicants, I don’t say that intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated are eliminated without being experienced. And that may be in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period. And I don’t say that suffering is ended without experiencing intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated.
Notice there's no 3rd option of kamma being defunct, as commonly taught in Abhidhamma class/ Theravada doctrine on Kamma. I have some trouble with this too when I learnt this recently. However, as mentioned, it doesn't mean that stream winner must go to hell, but that the deeds which would had lead to hell are experienced as some lesser suffering in the realm that they are in now. So one who has attained fruits accelerates the ripening of their kamma. Notice too that this doesn't say that the path to liberation is to end old kamma, liberation is still via wisdom, meditation, sila, the noble 8fold path. It's just that the kammas would ripen ASAP before the person attains final nibbana as an arahant.

4. https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato ... ript=latin
There is a path and a practice for giving up the five lower fetters. It’s not possible to know or see or give up the five lower fetters without relying on that path and that practice. Suppose there was a large tree standing with heartwood. It’s not possible to cut out the heartwood without having cut through the bark and the softwood. In the same way, there is a path and a practice for giving up the five lower fetters. It’s not possible to know or see or give up the five lower fetters without relying on that path and that practice.

...

And what, Ānanda, is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters? It’s when a mendicant—due to the seclusion from attachments, the giving up of unskillful qualities, and the complete settling of physical discomfort—quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation, extinguishment.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters.
Notice the Jhana formulation there. The explanation for why some people got to arahanthood straight after listening to a discourse is that they had Jhanas from before. MN64 seems a categorically very clear statement that Jhanas are needed for non-returners onwards.
Mangaka
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Re: Teachings and teachers

Post by Mangaka »

I would like to say my thanks for your answers. :anjali:
Why I was asking is because I wanted to know if it is allowed to learn from more than one teacher and after that when I posted this topic it occurred to me (there appeared worry in me exactly):
Won't I cause problem by this act (like schism in sangha) because one of teachers may don't like that?

I don't want to do something like that...
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Teachings and teachers

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Mangaka wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:31 am I would like to say my thanks for your answers. :anjali:
Why I was asking is because I wanted to know if it is allowed to learn from more than one teacher and after that when I posted this topic it occurred to me (there appeared worry in me exactly):
Won't I cause problem by this act (like schism in sangha) because one of teachers may don't like that?

I don't want to do something like that...
lay people cannot cause schism in the Sangha.

Anyway, unless you're staying in the monastery with the teacher who's very specifically prohibits you from doing other meditation methods other than his tradition's one, then there should be no issue for you to learn metta from this teacher, do breath meditation from that teacher, do charity work with Tzu Chi, do sutta studies with yet another teacher etc. Or combine metta from this and that teacher together etc.

If the teacher prohibits you from learning other teacher's stuffs, do inquire why. I had one Mahasi teacher who promptly refuses to teach me more after 1 or 2 months after he learnt that I am very firmly with the teachings leading to Jhanas, whereas his style is very often denigrates Jhanas. He said it's better for my mental well being to not learn from him so as not to confuse me further. It was indeed true and very hard for me to learn from him due to his anti-Jhana attitude.
Ontheway
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Re: Teachings and teachers

Post by Ontheway »

Mangaka wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:31 am I would like to say my thanks for your answers. :anjali:
Why I was asking is because I wanted to know if it is allowed to learn from more than one teacher and after that when I posted this topic it occurred to me (there appeared worry in me exactly):
Won't I cause problem by this act (like schism in sangha) because one of teachers may don't like that?

I don't want to do something like that...
Hi, Mangaka. :anjali:
You can read this.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.37/en/suj ... ript=latin

Sanghabheda (or Schism of the Order) only happened when a monk or group of monks broke off from what was prescribed by the Buddha and form their own Dhamma-Vinaya. Can see the Sutta above for more details.

Generally as we can see from the history of Buddhism, only monastic is capable to cause the Sanghabheda effectively (eg: Devadatta, Vajjian monks, 17 early schools of thought). Though others such as layperson could be a supportive cause. The outcome of causing Sanghabheda is, similar to other ānantarika-kammas, only one, that is: direct rebirth to Avici Niraya during next rebirth for a long long time. Once a person did it successfully, it is said that it is impossible for this person to develop for Path and Fruition.

This is why we layperson need to be careful if we want to side with monks. IMO, you can listen to all Dhammatalks by different monks or attending meditation events organised by different monks at various temples. No harm in it. But don't just believe all what those monks said, but to see if it accords to Dhamma-Vinaya, can it stand the Mahāpadesa test? is the Dhamma taught by that particular monk leading to dispassion or instead proliferation of views? does it leading to one of the 62 wrong views in Brahmajala Sutta? Does it speak aligning with extremism such as Sassatavada or Ucchedavada? Does it applicable in real life situations for the purpose of develop Path & Fruition?

Throughout my life as a Buddhist, I have seen
1) some monks preaching about bizarre teachings that wasn't from Pali Tipitaka;
2) some monks advocating cultural belief mixing with Buddhism;
3) some monks practising witchcrafts and when questioned, they said it was allowable;
4) I have seen some monks practising palmistry and Fortune-telling;
5) some monks speak with anger and racial or religious discrimination;
6) a monk decides to cut down Vinaya rules, claiming that his decision was consistent with Buddha vacana;
7) some monks come out with his personal interpretation of Paticca Samuppada that totally bring down the consistency of what Buddha taught;
8) some monks changed meaning of Pali words and put them in different meaning;
9) some monks were advocates of "only-Sutta-approach" or "Suttavada" or "Sauntrantika", yet inevitably form their own personal interpretation.
10) monk teaches that being vegetarian is necessary.

That's why Pariyatti aspect is so important for us layperson. Only with a good basis in Pali Tipitaka canon we can be decisive that: "This is Sadhamma, we follow; This is Adhamma, we don't follow." Without proper Pariyatti, we can be a lost cause.

While supporting the Sangha, I do exercise caution. This is my practice so far:
1) Normally when I listen to a monk, I will listen patiently first. Then, if it is what Buddha taught in Pali Tipitaka, I will rejoice in it gladly.

2) If I listen and found out something doubtful yet I wasn't able to solve it due to insufficient Pariyatti or Patipatti, there without agree or disagree, I go back and do some research and verify by myself or asking other Theras. Once clarify it, only then I make decision whether to agree or disagree.

3)If I listen to a monk preaching what was not in the Pali Tipitaka and possible a new interpretation (which is not tenable with Pāli Tipitaka), I listen patiently and then leave at once when opportunity comes.

4) If a monk preaching on something that is directly contradict with what was stated in Pali Tipitaka, siding with Sassatavada and/or Ucchedavada and somehow put the new teachings in Buddha's lips, and I am fully aware and understand that topic, there I will raise questions. But if the monk failed to see the contradiction, there I will not visit or associate with that monk again.

In the past when Arahants are present, layperson can still refer to them wherever doubts arise. But now it seems Arahants are no longer available for us, then we have to full rely on Pali Tipitaka that preserved from The First Council till the Third Council. :candle: :candle: :candle:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Mangaka
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:57 am

Re: Teachings and teachers

Post by Mangaka »

Thank you again, it is so great to have a group of people like here as Dhamma friends who offer helps.
I appreciate that so much.
:anjali:
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