The Jhāna passaddhi 'force' equation, and the simile of Ajahn Brahm and the golden goose

[frank k]

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... n-and.html

[auto]

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... n-and.html

When mental concomitants are not adapted made workable yet, then you can't work(aiming to hit a nail with a hammer etc) and meditate at the same time.

8 & 9 Kàya-passaddhi and Citta-passaddhi
Here ‘kàya’ does not mean ‘body’; it refers to the ‘group’ of mental
concomitants.
Passaddhi is tranquillity, calmness, quietude or serenity.
So kàya-passaddhi is tranquillity of mental concomitants
whereas citta-passaddhi is tranquillity of citta or consciousness.

From passaddhi to ujjukatà there are 6 pairs of cetasikas which
go by kàya and citta. The reason they were described in pair by
the Buddha is that they occur together and together they oppose
their opponents.

additional info,

By citta-passaddhi, only citta is tranquil. By kàya-passaddhi,
not only are the mental concomitants tranquil, but also the body
is tranquil due to the diffusion of wholesome cittaja-råpa, which
is mind-produced corporeality.
Passaddhi has the chief characteristic of suppressing or
allaying of feverishness of passions. It serves as the cool shade
of a tree to a person affected by the sun’s heat,
Passaddhi is opposed to kukkucca (worry). When highly
developed it becomes a factor of Enlightenment (bojjhaïga).

unworkableness of citta

14 & 15 Kàya-kamma¤¤atà and Citta-kamma¤¤atà
These two cetasikas refer to the adaptability of mental concomitants
and consciousness and the goodness in carrying out
their duty.
Their chief characteristic is the suppression of unserviceableness
or unworkableness of citta and its concomitants.
It is stated in Atthasàlini that these two cetasikas produce
serenity (pasàda) in propitious things, and are adaptable like
pure gold for beneficial works.

[frank k]

... quoting "abhi"...

what are you quoting exactly? Probably commentary to Abhidhamma, or someone's interpretation of Ab commentary. Not even canonical.

All your quotes do is serve to make my point. That LBT Theravada redefines body, passaddhi to be a completely different meditation than genuine EBT sutta.

Even canonical Abhidhamma treats passaddhi correctly. Look it up. Tv Ab Vb chapter on awakening factors. passaddhi according to suttas is bodily. passaddhi according to abhidhamma then is redefined as mental only.

Now my focus is on EBT suttas, so obviously the Abhidhamma sutta method definition is the one to apply. Kaya is rupa of elements, passadhi is physical.

[auto]

what are you quoting exactly? Probably commentary to Abhidhamma, or someone's interpretation of Ab commentary. Not even canonical.

Buuddhha Abhhiidhhamma
Ultimate Science
by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon

All your quotes do is serve to make my point. That LBT Theravada redefines body, passaddhi to be a completely different meditation than genuine EBT sutta.

take different interpreter then

This tranquillity is twofold, viz., tranquillity of Kàya
and Citta. Here Kàya is not used in the sense of material
body. It is the body of psychic factors—namely, Vedanà
(feeling), Sa¤¤à) (perception), and Saïkhàrà (mental
states). It should be understood that Kàya is used in the
same sense in the subsequent cetasikas. Citta connotes the
whole consciousness. The difference therefore lies between
psychic factors and consciousness as a whole. The same
explanation applies to the other pairs as well.

please cite your claims. I haven't learned the Tv Ab Vb, what these mean, does this mean Vibhanga?

Even canonical Abhidhamma treats passaddhi correctly. Look it up. Tv Ab Vb chapter on awakening factors. passaddhi according to suttas is bodily. passaddhi according to abhidhamma then is redefined as mental only.

[frank k]

...
please cite your claims. I haven't learned the Tv Ab Vb, what these mean, does this mean Vibhanga?

Even canonical Abhidhamma treats passaddhi correctly. Look it up. Tv Ab Vb chapter on awakening factors. passaddhi according to suttas is bodily. passaddhi according to abhidhamma then is redefined as mental only.

Yes, Vb = vibhanga, book 2 of canonical abhidhamma 7 books.
The late abhidhamma source you site is not canonical, so who is the translator is not the issue.
For example, Vimuttimagga uses earlier Abhidhamma, their jhana is fairly compatible with EBT. There is perception of physical body in all 4 jhanas, you can hear sound, you can think in first jhana, jhanas can be done with brahmavihara simlutaneously.

You get to Vism., it's a different late LBT version of abhidhamma (like the source you quote) where jhana has been redefined into a disembodied frozen stupor. A very different kind of 'jhana' than EBT and even canonical abhidhamma.

[auto]

You get to Vism., it's a different late LBT version of abhidhamma (like the source you quote) where jhana has been redefined into a disembodied frozen stupor. A very different kind of 'jhana' than EBT and even canonical abhidhamma.

It is wrong accusation of yours that it is disembodied frozen stupor.

Yes, Vb = vibhanga, book 2 of canonical abhidhamma 7 books.

what we are talking about is this i presume,
body and mind here are both mental, rūpa is excluded, it doesn't say it is excluded tho, i adopted this claim from abhidhamma

When the mind is full of rapture, the body and mind become tranquil.
Pītimanassa kāyopi passambhati, cittampi passambhati.
At such a time, a mendicant has activated the awakening factor of tranquility; they develop it and perfect it.

Yasmiṁ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno pītimanassa kāyopi passambhati, cittampi passambhati, passaddhisambojjhaṅgo tasmiṁ samaye bhikkhuno āraddho hoti, passaddhisambojjhaṅgaṁ tasmiṁ samaye bhikkhu bhāveti, passaddhisambojjhaṅgo tasmiṁ samaye bhikkhuno bhāvanāpāripūriṁ gacchati.

vibhanga,
see this text also point out that it is mental aggregates.

For him of strenuous energy there arises zest that is not worldly. This is called zest-enlightenment-factor. (4)

For him of zestful mind the body (of mental aggregates) becomes calm, also consciousness becomes calm. This is called calmness-enlightenment-factor. (5)

[frank k]

...
It is wrong accusation of yours that [VRJ LBT redefinition of jhana] it is disembodied frozen stupor. [in comparison to sutta jhana]

Then what is it? What part do you contest?
disembodied? one is not percipient of internal rupa (31 body parts).
frozen? a predetermined duration of the 'jhana' where cetana (volition) is shut off, one can not do anything other than abide in stupor until emerging from this state.
stupor? Mind is forced into a (metphorical) hole and only cognizant of a visual kasina as bare concept, not even aware of size of nimitta, color, shape, etc. for that frozen period.

...
https://suttacentral.net/vb10/en/thittila wrote:
For him of strenuous energy there arises zest that is not worldly. This is called zest-enlightenment-factor. (4)

For him of zestful mind the body (of mental aggregates) becomes calm, also consciousness becomes calm. This is called calmness-enlightenment-factor. (5)

Thitthila's translation and interpretation of jhana terms are blatantly corrupt.
In the quote you provide, the part in parenthesis is not in the pali.
Look at the pali. It says kaya. not kaya of mental factors. Just kaya. And the kaya is contrasted against citta passaddhi. A mental passadhi doesn't contrast with a citta passaddhi because they're the same thing.

And you didn't read the whole chapter for that Vb. The part you quote is the sutta analaysis section, and the pali text is pretty much equivalnet with MN 118 you quoted. IT's a body of physical body, a body of 31 body parts, a body of rupa.

Later in the Vb, under the "abhidhamma analaysis" section, THAT is where it's redefined kaya = collection of mental factors.

In other words, when you read abhidhamma scripture, then you apply abhidhamma redefinition of kaya,
when you read sutta, you use the sutta physical body definition of kaya.

I show here with audit and disection of Thittila's corrupt translation of vitakka and vicara:
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -v-in.html
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... jhana.html

[auto]

Then what is it? What part do you contest?
disembodied? one is not percipient of internal rupa (31 body parts).
..

Thanks for explaining what you mean by these terms. Also recon that i didn't look up what is written in the parenthesis if it is in the original and that it is abhidhamma definition about calmness enlightenment factor being of the mental aggregates.
Nevertheless i can't agree with you, because i think there are reasons and once you know it it makes sense.
perhaps
feelings.. are felt as having form.

Touched by hurtful contacts, they experience hurtful feelings that are exclusively painful—like the beings in hell.
So sabyābajjhehi phassehi phuṭṭho samāno sabyābajjhaṁ vedanaṁ vedeti ekantadukkhaṁ, seyyathāpi sattā nerayikā.
This is how a being is born from a being.
Iti kho, puṇṇa, bhūtā bhūtassa upapatti hoti;
For your deeds determine your rebirth,
yaṁ karoti tena upapajjati,
and when you’re reborn contacts strike you.
upapannamenaṁ phassā phusanti.
This is why I say that sentient beings are heirs to their deeds.
Evampāhaṁ, puṇṇa, ‘kammadāyādā sattā’ti vadāmi.
These are called dark deeds with dark results.
Idaṁ vuccati, puṇṇa, kammaṁ kaṇhaṁ kaṇhavipākaṁ.

touched by beautiful forms..

—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. They understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds: ‘These dear beings did bad things by way of body, speech, and mind.

[auto]

Then what is it? What part do you contest?
disembodied? one is not percipient of internal rupa (31 body parts).
frozen? a predetermined duration of the 'jhana' where cetana (volition) is shut off, one can not do anything other than abide in stupor until emerging from this state.
stupor? Mind is forced into a (metphorical) hole and only cognizant of a visual kasina as bare concept, not even aware of size of nimitta, color, shape, etc. for that frozen period.

Sutta evidence that the cetana is "shut off" in case of kusala consciousness what is experienced during jhāna

“A greedy person, overcome and overwhelmed by greed, intends to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They experience mental pain and sadness.
“Ratto kho, brāhmaṇa, rāgena abhibhūto pariyādinnacitto attabyābādhāyapi ceteti, parabyābādhāyapi ceteti, ubhayabyābādhāyapi ceteti, cetasikampi dukkhaṁ domanassaṁ paṭisaṁvedeti.

here you can notice how one can have no intent,
Op thinks abhidhamma is making things up, that there is no intent in jhana,

When greed has been given up, they don’t intend to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They don’t experience mental pain and sadness.
Rāge pahīne nevattabyābādhāyapi ceteti, na parabyābādhāyapi ceteti, na ubhayabyābādhāyapi ceteti, na cetasikaṁ dukkhaṁ domanassaṁ paṭisaṁvedeti.

the translation of dukkha here is mental pain. According to the OP dukkha should be physical.

But some of the issues you raise are simply because you start off from a position of disrespect and assuming things and misinterpreting what I say instead of asking for clarification.
If you instead take into consideration that I've had decades of meditation experience and might know what I'm talking about, you're much more likely to get a response.

I hope you clarify

[frank k]

AN 3.53 is not talking about the 4 jhanas.
When it says cetasika dukkha, or cetasikha sukha, then it's being qualified as a mental pain or happiness.
When it's kayika sukha or dukkha, then it's explicitly being qualified as physical. If sukha and dukkha is not qualified, usually sukha indriya and dukkha indriya is the default meaning, which is physical. KN Pe explicitly qualifies the dukkha and sukha in the 4 jhanas word commentary, as does Abhidhamma jhana vibhanga.

MN 111 contains cetana explicitly in 4 jhanas and first 7 perception attainments. Look it up.
Abhidhamma jhana vibhanga does not remove cetana either, and doesn't have access concentration or appana samadhi.
So even in early abhidhamma, canonical abhidhamma, cetana is active in the 4 jhanas, vitakka and vicara are explicitly defined to include samma sankappo, 3 kinds of right resolves/thinking. So even early abhidhamma, 4 jhanas can not be a frozen stupor as Vism. redefines it.

This is off topic from the OP.

Then what is it? What part do you contest?
disembodied? one is not percipient of internal rupa (31 body parts).
frozen? a predetermined duration of the 'jhana' where cetana (volition) is shut off, one can not do anything other than abide in stupor until emerging from this state.
stupor? Mind is forced into a (metphorical) hole and only cognizant of a visual kasina as bare concept, not even aware of size of nimitta, color, shape, etc. for that frozen period.

Sutta evidence that the cetana is "shut off" in case of kusala consciousness what is experienced during jhāna

“A greedy person, overcome and overwhelmed by greed, intends to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They experience mental pain and sadness.
“Ratto kho, brāhmaṇa, rāgena abhibhūto pariyādinnacitto attabyābādhāyapi ceteti, parabyābādhāyapi ceteti, ubhayabyābādhāyapi ceteti, cetasikampi dukkhaṁ domanassaṁ paṭisaṁvedeti.

here you can notice how one can have no intent,
Op thinks abhidhamma is making things up, that there is no intent in jhana,

When greed has been given up, they don’t intend to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They don’t experience mental pain and sadness.
Rāge pahīne nevattabyābādhāyapi ceteti, na parabyābādhāyapi ceteti, na ubhayabyābādhāyapi ceteti, na cetasikaṁ dukkhaṁ domanassaṁ paṭisaṁvedeti.

the translation of dukkha here is mental pain. According to the OP dukkha should be physical.

But some of the issues you raise are simply because you start off from a position of disrespect and assuming things and misinterpreting what I say instead of asking for clarification.
If you instead take into consideration that I've had decades of meditation experience and might know what I'm talking about, you're much more likely to get a response.

I hope you clarify

[auto]

MN 111 contains cetana explicitly in 4 jhanas and first 7 perception attainments. Look it up.
Abhidhamma jhana vibhanga does not remove cetana either, and doesn't have access concentration or appana samadhi.
So even in early abhidhamma, canonical abhidhamma, cetana is active in the 4 jhanas, vitakka and vicara are explicitly defined to include samma sankappo, 3 kinds of right resolves/thinking. So even early abhidhamma, 4 jhanas can not be a frozen stupor as Vism. redefines it.

Consciousness has support(ārammaṇa) what possesses the abilities of having will and the other qualities(dhamma),

“Mendicants, what you intend or plan, and what you have underlying tendencies for become a support for the continuation of consciousness.
“Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti ārammaṇametaṁ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.

When this support exists, consciousness becomes established.
Ārammaṇe sati patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa hoti.
When consciousness is established and grows, there is an inclination.
Tasmiṁ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nati hoti.
..

I think In mn111 the dhamma's there belong to the support.
8th support is without will,

They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.
So neva taṁ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.

I addressed for now only this point, where the cetana stands, it belongs to the support and what also is the reason consciousness gets established.

[frank k]

...
I addressed for now only this point, where the cetana stands, it belongs to the support and what also is the reason consciousness gets established.

You really want to talk to the guys in the Abhidhamma and take it up with them. I have no idea what you're talking about.
But what I know for sure, is that how Vism. redefinition of jhana is practiced, and how Ajahn Brahm teaches his redefinition of jhana, it's a formless frozen state of stupor where you can not exercise any thought or will. The only thing the mind is doing during that time of "jhana" is knowing the visual nimitta, and if it could exercise cetana to do anything other than that, then it wouldn't be "real jabrama jhana"

[auto]

...
I addressed for now only this point, where the cetana stands, it belongs to the support and what also is the reason consciousness gets established.

You really want to talk to the guys in the Abhidhamma and take it up with them. I have no idea what you're talking about.

If you read the Sutta, it says what you intent(ceteti) or plan becomes a support(ārammaṇa) for the continuance of consciousness. Its not going to be your intent at the next DO link, instead it is the support of a consciousness.
If that consciousness grows there will be nati - which based on other Sutta you can assume it is nāmarūpa also it fits the DO scheme of coming after consciousness. Thus, nāmarūpa is third round of an intent and according to the abhidhamma is a person, made up by mind and body, hence the "personally coming extinguished"

Based on Katthavathu, the nibbana is realized or attained by having ordinary consciousness what doesn't have support. I think the mind sees something during jhāna, which, after coming out of the jhāna can be applied at will with the ordinary consciousness - which could be a concentration on path fruit. It requires more study, i don't know.

-Buddha exits 4th jhāna, before he attains parinibbana-

I remember you mentioned something about later-early budhists texts, i presume it is that in your opinion, because it is too technical?

But what I know for sure, is that how Vism. redefinition of jhana is practiced, and how Ajahn Brahm teaches his redefinition of jhana, it's a formless frozen state of stupor where you can not exercise any thought or will. The only thing the mind is doing during that time of "jhana" is knowing the visual nimitta, and if it could exercise cetana to do anything other than that, then it wouldn't be "real jabrama jhana"

You don't know. You just said you don't even understand what i wrote, i defined cetana, yet you can't muster a reply to it. I think you have basic idea what will is and no concept.

[auto]

AN 3.53 is not talking about the 4 jhanas.
When it says cetasika dukkha, or cetasikha sukha, then it's being qualified as a mental pain or happiness.
When it's kayika sukha or dukkha, then it's explicitly being qualified as physical. If sukha and dukkha is not qualified, usually sukha indriya and dukkha indriya is the default meaning, which is physical. KN Pe explicitly qualifies the dukkha and sukha in the 4 jhanas word commentary, as does Abhidhamma jhana vibhanga.

Vibhanga,

Therein what is controlling faculty of pleasure? That which is bodily ease; bodily pleasure; easeful pleasant experience born of bodily contact; easeful pleasant feeling born of bodily contact. This is called controlling faculty of pleasure. (10)

Therein what is controlling faculty of pain? That which is bodily uneasiness; bodily pain; uneasy painful experience born of bodily contact; uneasy painful feeling born of bodily contact. This is called controlling faculty of pain. (11)

Tattha katamaṁ sukhindriyaṁ? Yaṁ kāyikaṁ sātaṁ kāyikaṁ sukhaṁ kāyasamphassajaṁ sātaṁ sukhaṁ vedayitaṁ kāyasamphassajā sātā sukhā vedanā—idaṁ vuccati “sukhindriyaṁ”.

Tattha katamaṁ dukkhindriyaṁ? Yaṁ kāyikaṁ asātaṁ kāyikaṁ dukkhaṁ kāyasamphassajaṁ asātaṁ dukkhaṁ vedayitaṁ kāyasamphassajā asātā dukkhā vedanā—idaṁ vuccati “dukkhindriyaṁ”.

but Vibhanga also says,

“Experiences pleasure by way of the body (of mental aggregates)” means: Therein what is pleasure? That which is mental ease, mental pleasure, easeful pleasant experience born of mental contact, easeful pleasant feeling born of mental contact.

as a comment for this line,

..he experiences pleasure by way of the body (of mental aggregates); this the Noble Ones declare, “The equable, mindful dweller in pleasure”; he attains and dwells in the third jhāna;

Vibhanga about rūpa,

All form is that which is
..
not “accompanied by zest”,
not “accompanied by ease”,
not “accompanied by indifference”,
..
related to the universe of sense,
not related to the universe of form,
nor to that of the formless,

If you take into account the Vibhanga about rūpa, would that change anything about your claims about abhidhamma redefining body in jhāna and Vibhanga got it right by you implying that there is sukha(bodily feeling) in jhāna(accompanies rūpa)?
--
Opposite of it would be absence of kāyaviññatti which makes body at ease,

What is that [material] form which is bodily intimation (kāyaviññatti)?

That tension, that intentness, that state of making the body tense, in response to a thought, whether good, bad, or indeterminate, on the part of one who advances, or recedes, or fixes the gaze, or glances around, or retracts an arm, or stretches it forth—the intimation, the making known, the state of having made known—this is that [material] form which constitutes bodily intimation.