Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

[un8-]

Do you believe Arahants have dukkha that is defined in the first noble truth, i.e. suffering?

[Mr. Seek]

It's a tough nut that I tried to crack in another recent thread.

viewtopic.php?t=41592

I'd pick option 3: "It's complicated".

[equilibrium]

AN 6.62:

"And what is the cessation of stress? From the cessation of craving is the cessation of stress; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns stress in this way, the cause by which stress comes into play in this way, the diversity of stress in this way, the result of stress in this way, the cessation of stress in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of stress.

1 NT : This is suffering.
So clearly he “knows and sees”….. so no suffering anymore….. one is clearly released.

[mjaviem]

What does it mean "to have" dukkha? Have how?

[one_awakening]

Hasn't an Arahant eliminated Dukkha?

[un8-]

What does it mean "to have" dukkha? Have how?

It arises for them

[mjaviem]

What does it mean "to have" dukkha? Have how?

It arises for them

What do you mean by "for them". Do you mean in dependence to them? Because of them? What is the relationship?

[SarathW]

Buddha defined Dukkha as the five clinging aggregates.
Arahants do not have a five clinging aggregate.
Body pain alone is not Dukkha according to this definition.

[Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta]

Yes.

It's not a belief. It's a fact, an extremely obvious one, straightforward from the very beginning of the spinning of the wheel of the Dhamma.

• have dukkha?
  • Yes. Absolutely. (that's why it's called truth, without reservations whatsoever.)

• will have dukkha, beyond this very life?
  • No.

And, this have been made very clear by The Blessed One since the First Sermon.
Here is the supreme most arahant, the Buddha, with current-life sufferings (as mentioned in the first noble truth, as stated by the OP).

SN 56.11.
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi

• “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
  ...
  ...
  ‘Unshakable is the liberation of my mind. This is my last birth. Now there is no more renewed existence.’”

In addition, Buddha had illnesses, and aging, and ... umm ... death, of course.

DN 16 https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato ... ript=latin
Buddha ... severely ill, dreadful pains, close to death

• After the Buddha had commenced the rainy season residence, he fell severely ill, struck by dreadful pains, close to death. But he endured unperturbed, with mindfulness and situational awareness. Then it occurred to the Buddha, “It would not be appropriate for me to become fully extinguished before informing my attendants and taking leave of the mendicant Saṅgha. Why don’t I forcefully suppress this illness, stabilize the life force, and live on?”

That is the very thought of the Buddha himself: "Why don’t I forcefully suppress this illness..."




Summing up:

• Yes, Arahants definitely have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth, and it's a fact.

[cappuccino]

definitely

That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing … when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye.


Nakhasikha Sutta: The Tip of the Fingernail

[Coëmgenu]

Arhats suffer according to Theravada. The Buddha himself suffered according to Theravada. He would have suffered less if he had not chosen to stay in the world, if he had not chosen to heed Brahma's call to stay in the world and teach the Dharma. Instead, he prolonged his dealing with a burden, i.e. embodiment in the manner of a sentient being, to teach the Dharma and establish the Samgha. The ability enjoyed by the Arhats, according to Theravada as I am familiar with it, is to touch Nibbana. Touching Nibbana is the opposite of suffering. Even the fine subtle sufferings inherent in the jhanas are not present in Nibbana. At the end of the life of the Arhat, there is no subsequent birth into the three realms of suffering. Birth is ended, and thus death has ended. All suffering has ceased, never again to re-arise in a subsequent embodiment.

[Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta]

definitely

... next to nothing … when compared with the previous mass of suffering. ...

Next to nothing is surely not identical with Nothing.

Suffering is suffering, definitely.

[SarathW]

definitely

... next to nothing … when compared with the previous mass of suffering. ...

Next to nothing is surely not identical with Nothing.

Suffering is suffering, definitely.

Not necessarily.
There are some people seek pleasure on things others see as suffering.
For instance itching an eczema could be a pleasure to the patient.
Suffering could be relative too.
A normal day for a poor could be a suffering to a rich.

[Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta]

...
Suffering is suffering, definitely.
...

Not necessarily.
There are some people seek pleasure on things others see as suffering.
For instance itching an eczema could be a pleasure to the patient.
Suffering could be relative too.
A normal day for a poor could be a suffering to a rich.

Within the context of the OP as well as by definition ("dukkha as defined in the first noble truth")

• Suffering is Suffering, definitely.
  And, arahants, and even Buddha, are not exempted from suffering.

In other words:

• dukkha is dukkha, definitely.
  And, arahants, and even Buddha, are not exempted from dukkha.

[asahi]

Lets make it simple , the meaning of dukkha included physical n pyschological , undoubtedly , arahat still suffers with bodily pains . Why called it Nibbana , meaning is blown out . The only way to arrive at Totally being blown out is Parinibbana isnt it !