Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

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Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Yes
9
29%
No
22
71%
 
Total votes: 31

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nirodh27
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by nirodh27 »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:23 pm I think the main disagreement in this thread is about dukkhadukkhatā. Some say that only with the breakup of the body there's true freedom from dukkha while others argue that that freedom is already accomplished before the breakup of the body. Some consider this dukkhadukkhatā goes away with a physical body turning into a corpse.
I think that we should stick to the question of the opener: how the noble truth defines Dukkha and if Arahants still have that Dukkha.

That dukkhadukkhatā and all Dukkha goes away with a physical body turning into a corpse seems evident (both if Buddhist rebirth system is true and you are an Arahant without acquisitions and also if there's no rebirth for anyone actually). To me, Dukkhadukkhata remains as an unpleasant feeling for the arahant that can or cannot be. I can't imagine how it could not and the suttas supports this. It is simply rational for a person to avoid physical pain, more so for a Buddha, the difference is that Buddha's will not search solace in pleasant feelings (or lament), but in neutral ones or in no-feeling at all. If a medicine can resolve an issue of a dukkha vedana for your head or you acke or your feet, it is useless to suffer or bear it, it would be aversion to your own body and yourself. It is the same with food, it is used solely to maintain the body healthy and avoid dukkha vedana, why? Because Dukkha vedana is possible for the Arahant.

But the four noble truths doesn't contain a clear reference to that pain in my opinion. Not in SN56.11, but it seems also that the Dukkha in sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā seems to describe a pain that is linked to mental events of attachment to dear things, the five aggregates or the world.
‘Is there anything in the world whose changing and perishing would give rise to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress in me?’ ‘atthi nu kho taṁ kiñci lokasmiṁ yassa me vipariṇāmaññathābhāvā uppajjeyyuṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā’ti? It occurred to me: Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, etadahosi: ‘There is nothing in the world whose changing and perishing would give rise to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress in me.’” ‘natthi kho taṁ kiñci lokasmiṁ yassa me vipariṇāmaññathābhāvā uppajjeyyuṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā’”ti.
It seems that for Sariputta nothing in the world can give him sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā, he was not aware of the possibility to physical pain due to illness or the four elements? It seems very unlikely. So very likely that sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā refers to the clinging of the aggregates or the clinging to something beloved and the aversion to the unbeloved, both are ended immediately when the Path is completed, there's no need to wait death (but is certainly ended also at death for the Arahant).

Of course, other usage of sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā could revert this, I haven't passed all the occurrences.

I know that you believe that physical pain ends immediately with Nibbana here and now. But there are a lot of Suttas that speaks about physical pain even for the Buddha. Those have to be reconciliated in some way. If it is your faith btw, I respect that. Btw the Sariputta quote that I gave you could be used to maintain your position since if some accepts that the four noble truths contain physical pain because of sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā we have sariputta that says that nothing can give rise to sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā in his life, but I think Sariputta is not speaking of the dukkha vedana for the reason I've exposed. The four noble truths are very precise about the kind of Dukkha they end.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Mr. Seek wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:41 pm It's a tough nut that I tried to crack in another recent thread.

viewtopic.php?t=41592

I'd pick option 3: "It's complicated".
Woah, this got 75 replies in under a day. If this matter was simple, straightforward, obvious, etc., it wouldn't have even reached page 2. Unfortunately, it isn't. 2000 years later and we're clueless even about the basics. Takes courage to admit you're clueless and lost though.
un8-
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by un8- »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:10 pm
mjaviem wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:23 pm I think the main disagreement in this thread is about dukkhadukkhatā. Some say that only with the breakup of the body there's true freedom from dukkha while others argue that that freedom is already accomplished before the breakup of the body. Some consider this dukkhadukkhatā goes away with a physical body turning into a corpse.
I think that we should stick to the question of the opener: how the noble truth defines Dukkha and if Arahants still have that Dukkha.

That dukkhadukkhatā and all Dukkha goes away with a physical body turning into a corpse seems evident (both if Buddhist rebirth system is true and you are an Arahant without acquisitions and also if there's no rebirth for anyone actually). To me, Dukkhadukkhata remains as an unpleasant feeling for the arahant that can or cannot be. I can't imagine how it could not and the suttas supports this. It is simply rational for a person to avoid physical pain, more so for a Buddha, the difference is that Buddha's will not search solace in pleasant feelings (or lament), but in neutral ones or in no-feeling at all. If a medicine can resolve an issue of a dukkha vedana for your head or you acke or your feet, it is useless to suffer or bear it, it would be aversion to your own body and yourself. It is the same with food, it is used solely to maintain the body healthy and avoid dukkha vedana, why? Because Dukkha vedana is possible for the Arahant.

But the four noble truths doesn't contain a clear reference to that pain in my opinion. Not in SN56.11, but it seems also that the Dukkha in sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā seems to describe a pain that is linked to mental events of attachment to dear things, the five aggregates or the world.
‘Is there anything in the world whose changing and perishing would give rise to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress in me?’ ‘atthi nu kho taṁ kiñci lokasmiṁ yassa me vipariṇāmaññathābhāvā uppajjeyyuṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā’ti? It occurred to me: Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, etadahosi: ‘There is nothing in the world whose changing and perishing would give rise to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress in me.’” ‘natthi kho taṁ kiñci lokasmiṁ yassa me vipariṇāmaññathābhāvā uppajjeyyuṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā’”ti.
It seems that for Sariputta nothing in the world can give him sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā, he was not aware of the possibility to physical pain due to illness or the four elements? It seems very unlikely. So very likely that sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā refers to the clinging of the aggregates or the clinging to something beloved and the aversion to the unbeloved, both are ended immediately when the Path is completed, there's no need to wait death (but is certainly ended also at death for the Arahant).

Of course, other usage of sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā could revert this, I haven't passed all the occurrences.

I know that you believe that physical pain ends immediately with Nibbana here and now. But there are a lot of Suttas that speaks about physical pain even for the Buddha. Those have to be reconciliated in some way. If it is your faith btw, I respect that. Btw the Sariputta quote that I gave you could be used to maintain your position since if some accepts that the four noble truths contain physical pain because of sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā we have sariputta that says that nothing can give rise to sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā in his life, but I think Sariputta is not speaking of the dukkha vedana for the reason I've exposed. The four noble truths are very precise about the kind of Dukkha they end.
:goodpost:

Another thing to add is that sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā translates
to "Grief, lamentation, pain, sorrow, and despair", 4 of these are clearly emotions, these are all synonyms of the same thing. Why would "pain" breakaway from that and become physical all of a sudden, makes no sense.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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nirodh27
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by nirodh27 »

un8- wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:21 pm :goodpost:

Another thing to add is that sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā translates
to "Grief, lamentation, pain, sorrow, and despair", 4 of these are clearly emotions, these are all synonyms of the same thing. Why would "pain" breakaway from that and become physical all of a sudden, makes no sense.
Well, I have seen two weeks ago a friend lose his husband at 35 years after 1 month of marriage, probably while they were living the happiest moment in their life. It makes a lot of sense to find physical pain there between the grief, lamentation, sorrow and despair actually in a single word. When something happens to something very dear to you, the pain is also physical. The point is that with dispassion, detachment all that dukkha was impossible in the first place and only when she will detach (edit: detach, forget or find a new source of pleasure) will end. I felt immense gratitude to have discovered the Dhamma. I think that is why the dukkha is mixed in a single word with all the mental suffering. So the origin is mental or, more correct, is in craving, that is a mental event that propagates in the body too. Separation from the beloved contains unpleasant feeling only if you have something beloved in the first place. Also to be associated with the unbeloved (aversion) have the same problem. The Buddha was very aware of the fact that body-mind is a linked system.

Btw It all depends by the suttas usage. We are so dependent from the Pali. Maybe there will be surprises. But certainly the sariputta statement is interesting about this issue and very likely the main meaning of sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā is about what is dear to you and what is undear, both things have to be removed if you want to live disjoined from the senses as an Arahant would do.
Last edited by nirodh27 on Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

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un8- wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:41 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:40 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:21 pm
So that he can continue to teach the dhamma, and let the doctor make good merit
When Coëmgenu said your position was a gateway drug to the Mahāsāṃghika idea of a cosmic Buddha, taken up by some Mahāyāna schools of thought, this was it.
:focus:

Keep your irrelevant opinions and thoughts to yourself. If I shared my opinion of Coemgenu and yourself, I'd probably get banned.
There really isn’t any need to react so negatively. Besides, said ideas have a long history in Buddhism. I don’t agree with them, but they have been there since the earliest of times. It’s definitely not Theravāda though.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by mjaviem »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:10 pm I think that we should stick to the question of the opener: how the noble truth defines Dukkha and if Arahants still have that Dukkha.
...
Alright I haven't read all posts so I don't know the main argument going on. But I think all dukkha is in the first noble truth and arahants don't have it, they are unconnected to the world, unconnected to any form of dukkha. I don't argue about dukkha I argue how people can relate someone fully extinguished with any kind of dukkha.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
un8-
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by un8- »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:55 pm ...
The 3 poisons refers to the mind as well, and as does the 5 Hindrances. The Buddha gets tired but he does not have sloth and torpor. So while it may seem that there is a manifestation of physical pain, it's not the same thing as a back ache or stubbing your toe, or slicing your hand. Physical pain can be ignored, there are people who can go under surgery or extreme pain without anesthesia. Kids generally cry from the slightest physical pain, and adults generally don't. Adults can walk it off or just ignore it. Which shows that with maturity these things are shrugged off, thus they're subject to conceiving. People are willing to donate their organs and go through surgery for others, so they're willing to put up with physical pain in order prevent emotional pain. I'm sure your friend would be willing to go through physical pain to bring back their spouse.

However extreme emotional pain that causes what appears to be a physical manifestation, cannot be ignored by adults. The mind in that state is overwhelmed, not calm and peaceful. It's that state that the Buddha warns against, not physical pain.

.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Could we also stop quoting huge chunks of text. Thanks.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by Coëmgenu »

un8- wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:18 pmAdults can walk it off or just ignore it. Which shows that with maturity these things are shrugged off, thus they're subject to conceiving.
I think you'd have a hard time selling this interpretation to someone dying of bone cancer.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:22 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:18 pmAdults can walk it off or just ignore it. Which shows that with maturity these things are shrugged off, thus they're subject to conceiving.
I think you'd have a hard time selling this interpretation to someone dying of bone cancer.
Right.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
un8-
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by un8- »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:22 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:18 pmAdults can walk it off or just ignore it. Which shows that with maturity these things are shrugged off, thus they're subject to conceiving.
I think you'd have a hard time selling this interpretation to someone dying of bone cancer.
Extreme pain usually coincides with loss of consciousness. A person dying of bone cancer (leukemia), is usually drugged up so they don't feel extreme pain, and if they're near death, then they're usually fading in and out of consciousness.
Last edited by un8- on Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
un8-
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by un8- »

Pretty sure this kid was an expert on living with pain, yet mentally overcame his physical pain

There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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mjaviem
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by mjaviem »

Mr. Seek wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:16 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:41 pm It's a tough nut that I tried to crack in another recent thread.

viewtopic.php?t=41592

I'd pick option 3: "It's complicated".
Woah, this got 75 replies in under a day. If this matter was simple, straightforward, obvious, etc., it wouldn't have even reached page 2. Unfortunately, it isn't. 2000 years later and we're clueless even about the basics. Takes courage to admit you're clueless and lost though.
I participate in this kind of discussion because I consider it part of building right view. It's an important topic that we need to get straight. The earlier the better. But perhaps the best is to just practise without engaging in hot discussions.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:55 pm Earlier, the non-physical arūpya entities were brought up as a complication of the "embodied = subject to pain" argument. This is good. It shows critical thinking, but it does not show a sufficient Buddhist education.

Not all bodies are physical. We physical beings actually have a non-physical body too, the nāmakāya/manaskāya. The non-physical arūpya beings have these non-physical bodies which are naturally subject to mental pain only.
:goodpost:

The pain of the 1st dart is both physical and mental.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

Post by mjaviem »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:55 pm Earlier, the non-physical arūpya entities were brought up as a complication of the "embodied = subject to pain" argument. This is good. It shows critical thinking, but it does not show a sufficient Buddhist education.

Not all bodies are physical. We physical beings actually have a non-physical body too, the nāmakāya/manaskāya. The non-physical arūpya beings have these non-physical bodies which are naturally subject to mental pain only.
My questions point to any kind of body, to any kind of acquisition, you are not addressing my question of what is the relationship of any kind of dukkha with someone who went extinguished.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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