I think that we should stick to the question of the opener: how the noble truth defines Dukkha and if Arahants still have that Dukkha.mjaviem wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:23 pm I think the main disagreement in this thread is about dukkhadukkhatā. Some say that only with the breakup of the body there's true freedom from dukkha while others argue that that freedom is already accomplished before the breakup of the body. Some consider this dukkhadukkhatā goes away with a physical body turning into a corpse.
That dukkhadukkhatā and all Dukkha goes away with a physical body turning into a corpse seems evident (both if Buddhist rebirth system is true and you are an Arahant without acquisitions and also if there's no rebirth for anyone actually). To me, Dukkhadukkhata remains as an unpleasant feeling for the arahant that can or cannot be. I can't imagine how it could not and the suttas supports this. It is simply rational for a person to avoid physical pain, more so for a Buddha, the difference is that Buddha's will not search solace in pleasant feelings (or lament), but in neutral ones or in no-feeling at all. If a medicine can resolve an issue of a dukkha vedana for your head or you acke or your feet, it is useless to suffer or bear it, it would be aversion to your own body and yourself. It is the same with food, it is used solely to maintain the body healthy and avoid dukkha vedana, why? Because Dukkha vedana is possible for the Arahant.
But the four noble truths doesn't contain a clear reference to that pain in my opinion. Not in SN56.11, but it seems also that the Dukkha in sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā seems to describe a pain that is linked to mental events of attachment to dear things, the five aggregates or the world.
It seems that for Sariputta nothing in the world can give him sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā, he was not aware of the possibility to physical pain due to illness or the four elements? It seems very unlikely. So very likely that sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā refers to the clinging of the aggregates or the clinging to something beloved and the aversion to the unbeloved, both are ended immediately when the Path is completed, there's no need to wait death (but is certainly ended also at death for the Arahant).‘Is there anything in the world whose changing and perishing would give rise to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress in me?’ ‘atthi nu kho taṁ kiñci lokasmiṁ yassa me vipariṇāmaññathābhāvā uppajjeyyuṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā’ti? It occurred to me: Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, etadahosi: ‘There is nothing in the world whose changing and perishing would give rise to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress in me.’” ‘natthi kho taṁ kiñci lokasmiṁ yassa me vipariṇāmaññathābhāvā uppajjeyyuṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā’”ti.
Of course, other usage of sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā could revert this, I haven't passed all the occurrences.
I know that you believe that physical pain ends immediately with Nibbana here and now. But there are a lot of Suttas that speaks about physical pain even for the Buddha. Those have to be reconciliated in some way. If it is your faith btw, I respect that. Btw the Sariputta quote that I gave you could be used to maintain your position since if some accepts that the four noble truths contain physical pain because of sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā we have sariputta that says that nothing can give rise to sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā in his life, but I think Sariputta is not speaking of the dukkha vedana for the reason I've exposed. The four noble truths are very precise about the kind of Dukkha they end.