Do you believe Arahants have dukkha as defined in the first noble truth?

[Ceisiwr]

…

I’m glad you finally agree.

[cappuccino]

pain is still almost irrelevant

Each day has enough trouble of its own.

[mjaviem]

…

I’m glad you finally agree.

I don't agree a bit. I just respect his position. This is easy for me when I get honest answers.

And last time I remember you gave an answer to me it was full of anger and disdain. I'm glad those disturbed states you face are just something temporary.

[Ceisiwr]

…

I’m glad you finally agree.

I don't agree a bit. I just respect his position. This is easy for me when I get honest answers.

And last time I remember you gave an answer to me it was full of anger and disdain. I'm glad those disturbed states you face are just something temporary.

I wasn’t angry, nor do I view you with disdain. Do I think your claim that the Buddha has perceptions but not experiences is kooky though? Yes. It’s utterly bizarre logic to me. I don’t see how in anyway it makes sense. That doesn’t mean I look down on you, or hate you or whatever.

[mjaviem]

I’m glad you finally agree.

I don't agree a bit. I just respect his position. This is easy for me when I get honest answers.

And last time I remember you gave an answer to me it was full of anger and disdain. I'm glad those disturbed states you face are just something temporary.

I wasn’t angry, nor do I view you with disdain. Do I think your claim that the Buddha has perceptions but not experiences is kooky though? Yes. It’s utterly bizarre logic to me. I don’t see how in anyway it makes sense. That doesn’t mean I look down on you, or hate you or whatever.

Have a hug you too

[Ceisiwr]

Have a hug you too

[Coëmgenu]

“And what, Ānanda, is the perception of impermanence in all conditioned phenomena? Here, a bhikkhu is repelled, humiliated, and disgusted by all conditioned phenomena. This is called the perception of impermanence in all conditioned phenomena.”

- AN 10.60

He doesn't praise existence, even for as much as a finger's snap, AN 1:329 in paraphrase. Birth into the three realms is bhāva/"existence" here. People don't seem to realize that having been born at all is to experience the dukkha of (conditioned) existence. It should be Theravāda 101. The basics class.

[un8-]

No, they aren’t. Not being attached they don’t build up future dukkha. They just have to experience the dukkha that is now, which came to be based on past craving. Your argument is tantamount to saying there can be a peaceful and dukkha-free life. That wasn’t the message. Life itself was to be seen with horror. With disgust.

That's your interpretation…

Not really, no.

“And what, Ānanda, is the perception of impermanence in all conditioned phenomena? Here, a bhikkhu is repelled, humiliated, and disgusted by all conditioned phenomena. This is called the perception of impermanence in all conditioned phenomena.”

- AN 10.60

which so far 12 people on this poll disagree with.

Truth isn’t decided by a committee. As I said on another thread to you, being popular or not doesn’t make you right or wrong.

Right and the Arahant through his disgust has destroyed the 3 poisons thus being freed from becoming. He attains freedom and Nibbana while he's alive.

Also, being the minority doesn't mean you're right either, sometimes being a conspiracist just means you're a fool, like say flat earthers. Thinking Arahants suffer is a controversial opinion.

[cappuccino]

He doesn't praise existence, even for as much as a finger's snap

he calls it a spell of existence


which would imply a condition without a spell

[un8-]

I’m glad you finally agree.

I don't agree a bit. I just respect his position. This is easy for me when I get honest answers.

And last time I remember you gave an answer to me it was full of anger and disdain. I'm glad those disturbed states you face are just something temporary.

I wasn’t angry, nor do I view you with disdain. Do I think your claim that the Buddha has perceptions but not experiences is kooky though? Yes. It’s utterly bizarre logic to me. I don’t see how in anyway it makes sense. That doesn’t mean I look down on you, or hate you or whatever.

take it to DM please

[Ceisiwr]

This is a rapid research, I've taken the first occurrences. It seems that the sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā is linked to mental and nothing in the world whose change would give rise to sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā for Sariputta, but I ask for those that are actually more interest in this to search all occurrences, using the Frankk™ method used for Vitakka&vicara that is surely the most complete way to understand a term

Dukkha in "sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā" does include mental pain, but it's not restricted to it. There are 5 faculties:

• Sukhindriya.

• Somanassindriya.

• Dukkhindriya.

• Domanassindriya.

• Upekkhindriya.

These 5 faculties can be condenses to:

Pleasant vedanā
Sukhindriya & Somanassindriya.

Unpleasant vedanā
Dukkhindriya & Domanassindriya.

Neither pleasant nor painful vedanā
Upekkhindriya.

With that in mind dukkhindriya means the initial painful contact (at any of the 6 senses) which is why it is translated as "pain", whilst domanassindriya is the emotional reaction to that which is usually translated as "grief". We could also include sorrow and lamentation etc within that. For sukhindriya, this means pleasant contact at any of the 6 senses whilst somanassindriya means "delight" or "happiness". When then we read "sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā" it is clear that we are talking about dukkha & domanassa here. Pain and grief. The 1st dart and 2nd dart. This is even more drawn out when we consider that vedanā itself is defined as dukkha. Vedanā includes dukkha (pain) & domanassa (grief), which is why we see pain & grief amongst the list of things which are dukkha in the 1st Noble Truth.

"Jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, maraṇampi dukkhaṁ, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsāpi dukkhā, appiyehi sampayogopi dukkho, piyehi vippayogopi dukkho, yampicchaṁ na labhati tampi dukkhaṁ, saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā
And what is suffering, what is the origin of suffering, what is the cessation of suffering, what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering? Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering; sickness is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are suffering; not to obtain what one wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are suffering. This is called suffering."

This can be alternatively expressed in a condensed form

Idaṁ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhaṁ ariyasaccaṁ jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhaṁ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṁ na labhati tampi dukkhaṁ—saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā
Now this is the noble truth of suffering. Rebirth is suffering; old age is suffering; illness is suffering; death is suffering; association with the disliked is suffering; separation from the liked is suffering; not getting what you wish for is suffering. In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.

Association with the disliked (appiyehi sampayogo dukkho) would include dukkha & domanassa. Pain & grief. Pain then, at any of the 6 senses, is included amongst the list of things which are A) Dukkha and B) Are fully abandoned by via the Path.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of suffering? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. This is the origin of suffering.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … In dependence on the nose and odours … In dependence on the tongue and tastes … In dependence on the body and tactile objects … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. This is the origin of suffering.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of suffering? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This is the passing away of suffering.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging … cessation of existence … cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This is the passing away of suffering.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.43/en/bodhi

When there is craving there is pain and grief (dukkha & domanassa). With the fading away of the craving dukkha & domanassa cease. The Buddha was without the 2nd dart upon awakening, without domanassa, but he was not without vedanā and so had not yet fully escaped dukkha (pain). This would come with the end of life, for when there is no craving then there is

"... cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering."

The passing away of Dukkha both applies to the present and to the future. Freedom is freedom from the 2nd dart now, and both darts at death. With this in mind then when we read suttas like this

They’re not obsessed with the thought: ‘I am form, form is mine!’
‘Ahaṁ rūpaṁ, mama rūpan’ti na pariyuṭṭhaṭṭhāyī hoti.
So when that form of theirs decays and perishes,
Tassa ‘ahaṁ rūpaṁ, mama rūpan’ti apariyuṭṭhaṭṭhāyino, taṁ rūpaṁ vipariṇamati aññathā hoti.
it doesn’t give rise to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.
Tassa rūpavipariṇāmaññathābhāvā nuppajjanti sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā.

We can read it either as applying to mental pain only (which would mean physical dukkha can still be experienced) or as applying to the future, and so pain of both types (mental and physical) is still experienced whilst alive. Personally I opt for the latter, but either way the Buddha still experienced some kind of pain and pain itself is dukkha. Vedanā itself is dukkha. All of the aggregates are dukkha.

The eye element is found, as are disagreeable sights, and eye consciousness. Painful feeling (dukkhavedaniyaṁ) arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as painful... The mind element is found, as are disagreeable thoughts, and mind consciousness. Painful feeling (dukkhavedaniyaṁ) arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as painful. - SN 35.129

Pain (dukkhavedaniyaṁ) occurs at any of the 6 senses, and pain is dukkha

"Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering; sickness is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are suffering
Jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, maraṇampi dukkhaṁ, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsāpi dukkhā"

To say then that everything immediately ceases within the 1st Truth upon awakening is to say the Buddha no longer had dukkhavedaniyaṁ occurring at any of the senses. It is to say he never again experienced vedanā and, by extension, the other aggregates. But he did, and so not everything immediately ceases when awakening occurs. Some dukkha is still experienced, as residue from previous action (in another life). This must be endured, until final release at the end of life. To expand on the topic then somewhat, far from being something which is optional in the Dhamma rebirth is essential to the Dhamma.

[Ceisiwr]

Right and the Arahant through his disgust has destroyed the 3 poisons thus being freed from becoming. He attains freedom and Nibbana while he's alive.

They are without the āsavā yes, but they still experience dukkha. See above.

Also, being the minority doesn't mean you're right either

I did say this, twice now

"As I said on another thread to you, being popular or not doesn’t make you right or wrong."

sometimes being a conspiracist just means you're a fool, like say flat earthers. Thinking Arahants suffer is a controversial opinion.

I'm sorry but this shows your lack of knowledge on this subject. Everything I have said is standard Theravādin doctrine. It's how the Dhamma has been taught by this great tradition for over 2000 years. I believe the Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika also agreed. There were those who did say the Buddha didn't experience any pain or dukkha. These were the Mahāsāṃghika. To them when the Buddha said he was in pain and had to rest, or when had to enter the formless to escape pain, it was simply a skilful teaching. In reality he didn't experience any pain at all. He didn't go to the toilet either, or walk or eat or sleep. The Buddha is perfect, and perfect beings do not do those things. What people saw as the Buddha walking around, resting because he was in pain or eating etc was merely a mental projection from the eternal cosmic Buddha who awakened aeons upon aeons ago. Now, Theravāda and I might be wrong. The Mahāsāṃghika could be correct. I'm not awakened, so I don't know for sure. What we do know however is that the Mahāsāṃghika were faced with the same passages as we are. The question then becomes, which interpretation is more likely? Did the Buddha walk around eating, talking and experiencing pain (which is dukkha) or was it all just skilful means? A projection from a cosmic Buddha? Personally I think the Theravādin view is more realistic, especially given the human impulse to deify what we hold dear. Now, I'm not saying you are a full blown Mahāsāṃghika here but your arguments are very close to theirs, and it's worth noting that even they understood that pain was defined as dukkha and the Buddha somehow was said to experience it. Their cosmic Buddha was a way out of this apparently awkward fact, for them.

[nirodh27]

Hi Ceisiwr,

I've written many occurrences of sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā, and we have Sariputta that says that nothing in the world can give rise to sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā for him. So in this case sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā is not linked to unpleasant vedana that Sariputta can certainly can expect to experience. I've passed some more passages now, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā seems really always linked to acquisition, to mental acquisition as me, mine, self of the aggregates that can be ended immediately and that are certainly in the first noble truth.

sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā: this is presented as a single word with a very clear usage.

Association with the disliked (appiyehi sampayogo dukkho) would include dukkha & domanassa.

Association with the appiyehi (unbeloved, undear, it is used for family in an example I gave) doesn't create Dukkha for an Arahant in this very life. An arahant has nothing unbeloved or undear, that would be aversion right? It does not include dukkha & domanassa for him. When you have nothing beloved, not even yourself, death cannot affect you, alteration cannot affect you. This is the meaning of disjoined/detached. You regard something as beloved, you suffer for alteration. You don't, you don't suffer about that because of attachment.

To say then that everything immediately ceases within the 1st Truth upon awakening is to say the Buddha no longer had dukkhavedaniyaṁ occurring at any of the senses. It is to say he never again experienced vedanā and, by extension, the other aggregates.

No, I'm saying that the Dukkha in the first noble truth is not all the dukkha that we find in the canon, pure physical pain of this life is outside of the promise. let's see all fulfillment here and now (written very fast):

Birth = as a concept and an acquisition of the aggregates, this is ended now and way more so in the future. An Arahant (Sage at peace) sees nothing as self and is not born and a being cannot be born without craving since a being is craving and ignorance.
old-age = an acquisition and a concept, because it is the body that gets old. Not being born, old age lose meaning and regarding the body as self is required to experience "old-age".
illness = again, a concept that requires an acquisition of a body. For one to consider himself ill, to regard the body as self (Acquisition due to craving) is needed. Else is simply unpleasant vedana.
death = a concept that is ended immediately, the sage at peace is not a being and it is not born. Death cannot find you etc. Way more so, terminated birth, no more death in the future.
separation from the liked is suffering = terminated, no more liked, dear, etc.
not getting what you wish for is suffering = terminated.
association with the disliked is suffering = since disliked is the undear, unbeloved this is terminated.
the five grasping aggregates are suffering = if you don't grasp them, they are only aggregates, so they are only aggregates and those are not stated as dukkha in 1st noble truth.

So we have disposed of everything in SN56.11 and Sariputta disposed of sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā which is linked to the experience of acquisition, to the mental and ignorance.

So in the 4 noble truths we can have both Nibbana here and now and Nibbana in the future and both are called Nibbana while he could simply call Nibbana the without residue one. Seems that for the Buddha ending craving guarantees "you" (since you personally attain Nibbana) to not pick again as yours a body and acquire the six senses. If the Buddha is right to the fact that the world works in this way (I fail to see how he can be sure and I've asked many times in this forum how in the world could it would work without getting an answer, but hey!) for the future when the faculties are ended and there's no way that acquisition will happen, this ending of Dukkha will be true also in the future.

So when that form of theirs decays and perishes,
Tassa ‘ahaṁ rūpaṁ, mama rūpan’ti apariyuṭṭhaṭṭhāyino, taṁ rūpaṁ vipariṇamati aññathā hoti.
it doesn’t give rise to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.
Tassa rūpavipariṇāmaññathābhāvā nuppajjanti sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā.

We can read it either as applying to mental pain only (which would mean physical dukkha can still be experienced) or as applying to the future, and so pain of both types (mental and physical) is still experienced whilst alive

Why we have to choose when we can have both. The verb is at the present. Else we would find that it will not give rise to sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā because birth is ended, but in this life decay and perish would bring Dukkha, seems an important thing to specify. But this is speaking about here and now and future, just like for Sariputta no thing in the world can give rise to sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā here and now, it is also valid for future "no birth" = no sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā as well.

Personally I opt for the latter, but either way the Buddha still experienced some kind of pain and pain itself is dukkha.

I've said that i think that Buddha experienced unpleasant-dukkha vedana. I contest that the promise of the noble truths is not fulfilled here and now because it is not stated that it will grant you not experiencing unpleasant-dukkha in this very life.

So you can fulfill the four noble truths with Nibbana here and now (which is the detachment of the arahant with only a modicum of disturbance due to having a body) and you will have that too in the future with the ending of the six senses and assurance of no more birth. They are different? Yes, they are both a fulfilment of the noble truths? yes.

To say then that everything immediately ceases within the 1st Truth upon awakening is to say the Buddha no longer had dukkhavedaniyaṁ occurring at any of the senses. It is to say he never again experienced vedanā and, by extension, the other aggregates.

Why don't you distinguish the clinging-aggregates that are Dukkha with the aggregates without clinging? Arahant doesn't have clinging. If they have upadana-khandas then there's no distinction between the two, but is there in the suttas.

To expand on the topic then somewhat, far from being something which is optional in the Dhamma rebirth is essential to the Dhamma.

I would agree that Birth is essential, but I don't think that is possible to expand here such a complicate topic.

My interest is in the spirit of the four noble truths, this is the core of the teaching to me: if you crave or take something as yours (acquisition) you are open, liable (in the sense of susceptible) to suffering and stress here and now and in the future and that means that you will always be agitated, never at peace. This will never change regardless of the interpretation of minor points, of what is dukkha and what is not and also regardless of ideas about rebirth. The method is clear.

I will not respond or look at the forum for some days because I've given a lot of time here and I have to use my time and brain only to work for the next days without distraction, so don't take it for impoliteness that I will not respond to you in a timely manner. My main interest btw is to respond to you in the Jhana thread, hope to find time soon.

[cappuccino]

dukkha (pain)

stress is a better word for dukkha

[un8-]

dukkha (pain)

stress is a better word for dukkha

Yes, and this is a basic concept people usually read in an introduction to Buddhism book or article or talk, that the Buddha taught the ending of suffering, i.e. mental anguish. It's the most basic thing people learn, that's why I relate ceisiwr to flat-earthers, who also deny the most basic fundamental thing, and then they double down on it really hard, which is what he's known for doing.