Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

[Ceisiwr]

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.4/en/bodhi

A great sutta. I touched on it a few pages back: viewtopic.php?p=655548#p655548

It’s about an Arahant, not a sotapanna.

[Ceisiwr]

This is why I’m so adamant that phassanirodhā needs some serious consideration. I do not think the intent is to describe the disappearance of contact, but the cessation of its significance as a support for the mass of suffering (same with the other eleven factors).

Is this what the texts say, or is it you back reading western phenomenology into the suttas?

[SDC]

... the cessation of its significance as a support for the mass of suffering (same with the other eleven factors).

Yes and this is called cessation, true cessation. What other significance, other than self and suffering, can there be?

It depends on how the factors are interpreted. Taken as a linear sequence, the end would always imply the death of the body. In fact it would also keep self and body bound for the duration of the sequence - there would be no way to apply paṭiccasamuppāda to a living arahant. That is the point as far as I can see, that the mass of suffering can cease even though the body is still functioning in the case of the arahant.

But again, interpretation matters and it is useful that so many different perspectives are being gathered together and compared.

[SDC]

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.4/en/bodhi

A great sutta. I touched on it a few pages back: viewtopic.php?p=655548#p655548

It’s about an Arahant, not a sotapanna.

An ariyasāvaka is an arahant?

[SDC]

This is why I’m so adamant that phassanirodhā needs some serious consideration. I do not think the intent is to describe the disappearance of contact, but the cessation of its significance as a support for the mass of suffering (same with the other eleven factors).

Is this what the texts say, or is it you back reading western phenomenology into the suttas?

You’re bitterness is noted.

If you didn’t ghost me 9 out of 10 times I might’ve given you a genuine response, but I’m constantly pressed for time these days. So I’ll pass…

[Ceisiwr]

A great sutta. I touched on it a few pages back: viewtopic.php?p=655548#p655548

It’s about an Arahant, not a sotapanna.

An ariyasāvaka is an arahant?

As far as I’m aware that term can apply to anyone from a worldly person all the way through to an Arahant. That said person is free from the 2nd dart indicates that it’s an Arahant being discussed.

[Ceisiwr]

You’re bitterness is noted.

If you didn’t ghost me 9 out of 10 times I might’ve given you a genuine response, but I’m constantly pressed for time these days. So I’ll pass…

I’m not “bitter”. I think you make the same assumptions and leaps in conclusions as those who read “true self” into the texts. I don’t agree with most of your posts not because I don’t like them per se, but because you never establish that’s what the Buddha actually meant. Mostly, from my pov, it seems like the conclusion has already been assumed in advance and everything follows from that.

[SDC]

You’re bitterness is noted.

If you didn’t ghost me 9 out of 10 times I might’ve given you a genuine response, but I’m constantly pressed for time these days. So I’ll pass…

I’m not “bitter”. I think you make the same assumptions and leaps in conclusions as those who read “true self” into the texts. I don’t agree with most of your posts not because I don’t like them per se, but because you never establish that’s what the Buddha actually meant. Mostly, from my pov, it seems like the conclusion has already been assumed in advance and everything follows from that.

Fair enough. Glad to know how you really feel.

Hopefully we can make it back to how we used to communicate in years past when we pressed each other with genuine interest and tried to get to some middle ground. I think we both stopped for whatever reason.

[SDC]

That said person is free from the 2nd dart indicates that it’s an Arahant being discussed.

Agreed but SN 36.4 sounds more like a sotapanna.

[Ceisiwr]

That said person is free from the 2nd dart indicates that it’s an Arahant being discussed.

Agreed but SN 36.4 sounds more like a sotapanna.

Why?

[SDC]

That said person is free from the 2nd dart indicates that it’s an Arahant being discussed.

Agreed but SN 36.4 sounds more like a sotapanna.

Why?

“Foothold” is not associated with an arahant. It usually has connotations of work remaining. SN 22.56 is one example:

Whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known feeling, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, are practising for the purpose of revulsion towards feeling, for its fading away and cessation, they are practising well. Those who are practising well have gained a foothold in this Dhamma and Discipline.

[Ceisiwr]

“Foothold” is not associated with an arahant. It usually has connotations of work remaining. SN 22.56 is one example:

Whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known feeling, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, are practising for the purpose of revulsion towards feeling, for its fading away and cessation, they are practising well. Those who are practising well have gained a foothold in this Dhamma and Discipline.

Yet only Arahants are free from the 2nd dart.

[SDC]

“Foothold” is not associated with an arahant. It usually has connotations of work remaining. SN 22.56 is one example:

Whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known feeling, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, are practising for the purpose of revulsion towards feeling, for its fading away and cessation, they are practising well. Those who are practising well have gained a foothold in this Dhamma and Discipline.

Yet only Arahants are free from the 2nd dart.

I agree. That’s SN 36.6. SN 36.4 is the abyss sutta. That is the one I said sounds more like a sotapanna and you asked why

[Ceisiwr]

I agree. That’s SN 36.6. SN 36.4 is the abyss sutta. That is the one I said sounds more like a sotapanna and you asked why

In the abyss sutta said person is said to be from the 2nd dart. Only Arahants are free from the 2nd dart. I took a look at the parallel on DeepL. Obviously this isn’t certain, but “foothold” doesn’t seem to be in there. I don’t think “contacted” is either. It does talk of “noble disciple”, but once again this is DeepL. Either way the Pali describes an Arahant yet mentions “foothold”. A quick search has “foothold” paired with steam-entry or non-return. The alternative is that the stream-enterer or non-returner is free from the 2nd dart, but that doesn’t seem sustainable to me.

[SDC]

I agree. That’s SN 36.6. SN 36.4 is the abyss sutta. That is the one I said sounds more like a sotapanna and you asked why

In the abyss sutta said person is said to be from the 2nd dart. Only Arahants are free from the 2nd dart. I took a look at the parallel on DeepL. Obviously this isn’t certain, but “foothold” doesn’t seem to be in there. I don’t think “contacted” is either. It does talk of “noble disciple”, but once again this is DeepL. Either way the Pali describes an Arahant yet mentions “foothold”. A quick search has “foothold” paired with steam-entry or non-return. The alternative is that the stream-enterer or non-returner is free from the 2nd dart, but that doesn’t seem sustainable to me.

Perhaps SN 22.88 is a more definitive that the insight of “feeling detached feeling” is for a non-returner (though not lower than a sotapanna obviously). This is also a product of the Buddha not necessarily distinguishing the different ariyasāvaka, but I really don’t recollect seeing the arahant ever referred to as a noble disciple. The arahant would usually get the treatment of “one whose taints are destroyed”. Tricky ground.