Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

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mjaviem
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:08 pm ... the simple use of words doesn't mean that someone has an atta view. Rather it's how those words are viewed. When someone who is under the influence of the āsavā says "I was born" then for them there is self view, since the āsavā are giving life to those words. By comparison when someone who is not under the influence of the āsavā says "I was born" they are not giving life to those words, and so have no self-view. Both are using the same words, but they are viewing it differently. Simply saying then "he was born" doesn't necessarily mean the person is buying into an atta thingy.
There you go. You are explaining my position.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:19 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:08 pm ... the simple use of words doesn't mean that someone has an atta view. Rather it's how those words are viewed. When someone who is under the influence of the āsavā says "I was born" then for them there is self view, since the āsavā are giving life to those words. By comparison when someone who is not under the influence of the āsavā says "I was born" they are not giving life to those words, and so have no self-view. Both are using the same words, but they are viewing it differently. Simply saying then "he was born" doesn't necessarily mean the person is buying into an atta thingy.
There you go. You are explaining my position.
You were arguing that because I said “The Buddha had a literal birth in the past and had ended future literal birth” I was subscribing to an atta-view.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:17 am The “will” in my post was future tense.
I sense you are trying to introduce time to that which is akaliko. I would not do that myself, but I understand the influences of the Theravada tradition. Hence why it's difficult to simply "unsubscribe" to aspects of it, if all one's understandings and accepted exegeses are implicitly or explicitly grounded in it. This is what I was referring to earlier - it is difficult to explain perspectives from outside the paradigm to one who accepts the paradigm and takes it as given. Often there is no point even trying because (much like in political discussion) the words will be interpreted according to the listener's paradigm, no matter what the speaker says or does.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by mjaviem »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:48 pm "Metaphorical rebirth" was not one of your chosen terms (misremembering from me), but it seems that you think that when the Buddha spoke of "the eye," he spoke of it metaphorically, not as something to do with the generation of visual perception itself. Do you disagree?
...
Disagree. There's no metaphor and it does has to do with perception of visual forms. The point is that only beings have eyes, when there's no being there's no eye. There's no eye-essence either, no eye, like there's no cart either in the simile of the cart and its parts. The eye is extinguished like all other things explained in D.O., once there is direct knowing. There's no self possessing an eye and no eye as an independent entity.
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:48 pm ...
If conceiving involves thoughts, a different aggregate, why bring it up in relation to perception at all? What were you trying to say in doing so?
...
You brought up conceiving first in relation to perception.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by atipattoh »

Hi,
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:46 pm AFAIK, it's an Udānavarga. Do you have any resources you know of on its dating that would put it that far up and would associate it with Vajrayāna?
There text was translated by 天息災
法集要頌經卷第四, 尊者法救集

西天中印度惹爛駄囉國密林寺三藏明教大師賜紫沙門臣天息災奉 詔譯

法集要頌經樂品第三十
天息災 is Devaśāntika, there was another name, 法賢, same person. Translation was made around CE988 to be more exact year that it got into the collection.

The fact that Devaśāntika decorate the translation compound follows tantra period, says much of where He comes from.
天息災等參酌密教(Vajrayāna)儀軌,佈置了譯場。
The three, including Devaśāntika, study the follows the Vajrayāna ceremony, decorated the translation arena
According to 呂徵
這樣的譯場制度很適合當時的具體情況。那時主譯的雖為印度人,但通達華語,自不必再設傳譯。
Devaśāntika was known as fluent in Chinese language, so there was no need for Chinese language department.

But to composed text in that kind of structure, fluent alone may not be good enough. 呂徵 used 通達 to describe his capacity in the language, not 精通. This could be the problem.

~~ metta ~~~
Last edited by atipattoh on Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:25 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:37 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:06 pm

What is the condition for that feeling?
Like I said two posts up: phassanirodhā.
How is the cessation of contact a condition for feeling? If contact has ceased, feeling can’t come to be. The Buddha and Arahants experienced the 3 types of vedana, therefore …

If the cessation of a link is actually the condition for a link then there is no escape.
The confusion is to apply law of dependent origination to non-avijja based process.
there are activities that won't abide law of dependent origination.
All arahants' activities are so.
Even for us, many activities are not led by avijja, so those are not under ruling of dependent origination neither.
I think we train our sati to tell them apart.

Arahants do have contact or sense consciousness - otherwise they won't need glasses or alike. The thing is that the activities they carry out, is not under spell of dependent origination. They do have feelings too but it is not accurate to consider all feelings are under avijja's spell.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Coëmgenu »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:13 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:48 pm "Metaphorical rebirth" was not one of your chosen terms (misremembering from me), but it seems that you think that when the Buddha spoke of "the eye," he spoke of it metaphorically, not as something to do with the generation of visual perception itself. Do you disagree?
...
Disagree. There's no metaphor and it does has to do with perception of visual forms. The point is that only beings have eyes, when there's no being there's no eye. There's no eye-essence either, no eye, like there's no cart either in the simile of the cart and its parts. The eye is extinguished like all other things explained in D.O., once there is direct knowing. There's no self possessing an eye and no eye as an independent entity.
If there's no metaphor and it has to do with perception, if it's normal sañña according to how the Buddha defined it, an eyeless Arhat would be blind. The Buddha would have been similarly blind. Because you think "the eye" is a metaphor, despite your denials, you can say that Arhats have no eyes. If you don't think "the eye" is a metaphor, "Arhats have no eyes" is a meaningless statement, since they do have eyes and vision.
mjaviem wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:13 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:48 pm ...
If conceiving involves thoughts, a different aggregate, why bring it up in relation to perception at all? What were you trying to say in doing so?
...
You brought up conceiving first in relation to perception.
Actually, it was you. You said,

1) Are you perceiving when not regarding the sky and clouds as sky and clouds?

and 2) Are you perceiving when not discriminating an idea as an idea?

1), concerning "not regarding the sky and clouds as sky and clouds" is conceiving/conceptualization, not perception. "Not regarding the sky as sky" is to do with papañcasaññāsankhā, not to do strictly with sañña, which does not see "sky." It sees bare sensorial imput with no conceptual overlay. Similarly, 2), "not discriminating an idea as an idea" is the same. You are talking about the ability to abstractly and conceptually name things. This is once again related to papañcasaññāsankhā, not related to strictly and exclusively sañña, which is what I was talking about. It seems the two are becoming confused. The two are not the same.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
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It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by waryoffolly »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:30 am Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:17 am The “will” in my post was future tense.
I sense you are trying to introduce time to that which is akaliko. I would not do that myself, but I understand the influences of the Theravada tradition. Hence why it's difficult to simply "unsubscribe" to aspects of it, if all one's understandings and accepted exegeses are implicitly or explicitly grounded in it. This is what I was referring to earlier - it is difficult to explain perspectives from outside the paradigm to one who accepts the paradigm and takes it as given. Often there is no point even trying because (much like in political discussion) the words will be interpreted according to the listener's paradigm, no matter what the speaker says or does.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I found this passage in the Vimuttimagga recently where dependent arising is explained in a 'momentary' fashion (actual this may even be a "structural" rather than momentary description reading it closely), and it's relevant to this discussion because contact here is called 'ignorance-contact'. From Ven Nyanatusita's new translation (can be bought here: https://www.buddhism.hku.hk/Publications.html) :
Furthermore [dependent arising occurs by way of] a single mental property (cetasika) thus:

When seeing a form with the eye, the foolish person gives rise to greed (raga tanha). At this time the mind is deluded with regard to beauty and pleasure (subha-sukha)--this is called ignorance.

The volition (cetana) that is due to desires is "with ignorance as a condition, formations".

The mind (citta) that is due to desire is "with formations as condition, consciousness".

The mental properties (cetasika dhamma) associated with consciousness and the dependent kinds of matter (upadarupa) due to that are "with consciousness as condition, name-and-matter".

With delight (nandi) born of craving as condition, with delight and with matter [born of] delight as condition, there is sensitivity of the sense-faculties is "with name-and-matter as condition, the six sense bases".

Ignorance contact (avijjasamphassa) is "with the six sense bases as condition, contact".
Note that the more standard explanation is given prior to this in the Vimuttimagga, so both are listed as valid interpretations.

So the Vimuttimagga has an idea of 'ignorance contact' as well as 'normal contact'. (According to Ven Nyanatusita's footnotes, there are similar passages in the vibhanga-atthakatha, and the abhidharmakosa.)
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
waryoffolly wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:54 am Note that the more standard explanation is given prior to this in the Vimuttimagga, so both are listed as valid interpretations.
Interesting... it still appears Abhidhammic, but undercuts the notion that the sankhara -> vinnana nidana must be "across lifetimes".
waryoffolly wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:54 amSo the Vimuttimagga has an idea of 'ignorance contact' as well as 'normal contact'. (According to Ven Nyanatusita's footnotes, there are similar passages in the vibhanga-atthakatha, and the abhidharmakosa.)
Again, interesting. Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Coëmgenu »

"Ignorance-contact"/avijjasamphassa also comes up in Ven Buddhaghosa's commentary to SN 22.47 here in the Study Group section. Which commentary is "Spk?"

I'm wondering if avijjasampayuttaphassa is something to do with the opposite of visaññutta vedanā...
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Pondera »

I’ll chime in here. If you’re asking about an Arahant not feeling contact, or feeling - then you’re specifically alluding to Nirodha Samapatti.

I doubt even Arahants stay in Nirodha Samapatti ALL THE TIME. And this isn’t the vital condition for Nibanna.

The “heart’s release” is the Nibanna equivalent. There and by, one lives detached from the khandas and the dukkha, anicca, and anatta Associated with the khandas.

That does not amount to Nirodha Samapatti - however the similarities should be recognized.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by ToVincent »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:53 pm The condition for vedanā is contact, no?
retrofuturist wrote:.....


Again, there is nothing like "condition" — just "correlation" .
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=41905
With a proper grammar, phassapaccayā vedanā (f.) does not mean" contact (phassa) is the condition for vedanā", but:

" Vedanā is the feedback of phassa".
Literally: vedanā comes back to (come on to) phassa. As in "appear", "make ~visible~", and "make progress in knowledge" - (if we can speak of "progress").

Any "impulse" (hetu), brings a "feedback" (paccaya) — a manifestation of some sort - not always visible - that feeds back some sort of "knowledge" to a previous stage, (might it be directly related like two nidānā).

This is the correlation between an hetu, and a paccaya.

(And paṭicca/pratītya comes from the same root than paccaya: pati/prati-√ इ i.

Indeed, Paṭicca-Samuppāda means:
What springs together [flows out & perishes] (samuppāda/samutpāda), to (appear and) be understood (paṭicca/pratītya).
&
Paṭicca-Samuppanna means:
What has sprung together [flown out & perished] (samuppanna/samutpanna), to (appear and) be understood (paṭicca/pratītya).)

Therefore Ceisiwr, don't tell me that my "tune has changed" — I have been giving that definition, at least two years ago, on this forum.

.
.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by asahi »

So far , i have noticed many have misunderstanding on phassa (contact) and avijja phassa (ignorance contact) . :roll:
Then mistakenly taking "contact" ie 3 condition meeting as some physical impingement . :shock:
Taking liberation as Salayatana Nirodha is also one of the misconception .
Another thing is , if the Buddha or arahant doesnt have contact or feeling , then the Buddha and arahant do not have a Complete 5 aggregates but that is not the case . What the Buddha or arahant do not have is , the 5 clung to aggregates .
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:54 am


I found this passage in the Vimuttimagga recently where dependent arising is explained in a 'momentary' fashion (actual this may even be a "structural" rather than momentary description reading it closely), and it's relevant to this discussion because contact here is called 'ignorance-contact'. From Ven Nyanatusita's new translation (can be bought here: https://www.buddhism.hku.hk/Publications.html) :

Note that the more standard explanation is given prior to this in the Vimuttimagga, so both are listed as valid interpretations.

So the Vimuttimagga has an idea of 'ignorance contact' as well as 'normal contact'. (According to Ven Nyanatusita's footnotes, there are similar passages in the vibhanga-atthakatha, and the abhidharmakosa.)
The Vimuttimagga is following the Vibangha here, where different types of dependent origination are given. I believe the mind only process is one that lacks form, if I’m remembering correctly. It is probably trying to account for beings in the formless realms.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:34 am The Vimuttimagga is following the Vibangha here, where different types of dependent origination are given. I believe the mind only process is one that lacks form, if I’m remembering correctly. It is probably trying to account for beings in the formless realms.
The example given by the Vimuttimagga is explicitly 'seeing a form with the eye', so at least the author of the Vimuttimagga didn't interpret it as referring to the formless realms.
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