retrofuturist wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:38 pm
Saying his back aches (which is what I assume you're referring to) is merely an acknowledge of sensory inpingement, and taking care of the body in response to that awareness. Per what was said to Coëmgenu, that is not vedanā.
A back ache is a type of pain. In the suttas pain is classified under vedanā. It is a type of vedanā. To say then that his back ached is to say he is experiencing a painful vedanā.
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left."
See the last line. This sutta is comparing puthujjanas to sekhas.
The arahant doesn't have contact. This has already been explained above.
It's discussing an Arahant
“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. This, bhikkhus, is called a noble disciple who is detached from birth, aging, and death; who is detached from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; who is detached from suffering, I say."
The Arahant is detached from vedanā, but this means he or she is experiencing vedanā. The condition for vedanā is contact, no?
No, "skilful means" is fake news
Based on the above then either the Buddha was lying, the suttas in question are corrupt or your interpretation is wrong. Either the Buddha experienced vedanā or he didn't, and we have suttas saying that he did. More on the Arahants and vedanā.
“What do you think, Assaji, is form permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”… —“Therefore … Seeing thus … He understands: ‘… there is no more for this state of being.’
“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent’; he understands: ‘It is not held to’; he understands: ‘It is not delighted in.’ If he feels a painful feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent’; he understands: ‘It is not held to’; he understands: ‘It is not delighted in.’ If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent’; he understands: ‘It is not held to’; he understands: ‘It is not delighted in.’
“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached.
“When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’
“Just as, Assaji, an oil lamp burns in dependence on the oil and the wick, and with the exhaustion of the oil and the wick it is extinguished through lack of fuel, so too, Assaji, when a bhikkhu feels a feeling terminating with the body … terminating with life … He understands: ‘With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.88/en/bodhi
How do you explain the discrepancy between what these suttas are saying and your own view that the Arahants have "experiences but not vedanā", to paraphrase you slightly?