Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:59 pm Sorry, you didn't answer my question.
I did actually. In the Dhamma, vedanā is fabricated, dependent and empty.

Arahants don't do fabricated and dependent, as they know all is empty.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:59 pmLet me rephrase though. Did the Buddha and Arahants experience any pleasure, pain or neutral vedanā?
My initial explanation stands, although I'm not surprised you do not find satisfaction in it. I have explained to you in previous topics that unlike the Abhidhamma, the Dhamma of the Buddha is not about exist and does-not-exist.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:23 pm
I did actually. In the Dhamma, vedanā is fabricated, dependent and empty.

Arahants don't do fabricated and dependent, as they know all is empty.
Thank you for answering. So, when the Buddha said he was in pain I assume this was a skilful means for you? I say skilful means, because I don't think you think the Buddha would have lied. Keeping with your line of thought, was the teaching of the two darts also a skilful means?
“Bhikkhus, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. He feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, but they would not strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by one dart only. So too, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling … he feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one.

“Being contacted by that same painful feeling, he harbours no aversion towards it. Since he harbours no aversion towards painful feeling, the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling does not lie behind this. Being contacted by painful feeling, he does not seek delight in sensual pleasure. For what reason? Because the instructed noble disciple knows of an escape from painful feeling other than sensual pleasure. Since he does not seek delight in sensual pleasure, the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling does not lie behind this. He understands as it really is the origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these feelings. Since he understands these things, the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling does not lie behind this.

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. This, bhikkhus, is called a noble disciple who is detached from birth, aging, and death; who is detached from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; who is detached from suffering, I say.

“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the instructed noble disciple and the uninstructed worldling.”
- SN 36.6
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:28 pm So, when the Buddha said he was in pain I assume this was a skilful means for you?
No, "skilful means" is fake news.

Saying his back aches (which is what I assume you're referring to) is merely an acknowledge of sensory inpingement, and taking care of the body in response to that awareness. Per what was said to Coëmgenu, that is not vedanā.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:28 pmI say skilful means, because I don't think you think the Buddha would have lied. Keeping with your line of thought, was the teaching of the two darts also a skilful means?
“Bhikkhus, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. He feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, but they would not strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by one dart only. So too, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling … he feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one.

“Being contacted by that same painful feeling, he harbours no aversion towards it. Since he harbours no aversion towards painful feeling, the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling does not lie behind this. Being contacted by painful feeling, he does not seek delight in sensual pleasure. For what reason? Because the instructed noble disciple knows of an escape from painful feeling other than sensual pleasure. Since he does not seek delight in sensual pleasure, the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling does not lie behind this. He understands as it really is the origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these feelings. Since he understands these things, the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling does not lie behind this.

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. This, bhikkhus, is called a noble disciple who is detached from birth, aging, and death; who is detached from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; who is detached from suffering, I say.

“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the instructed noble disciple and the uninstructed worldling.”
- SN 36.6
See the last line. This sutta is comparing puthujjanas to sekhas.

The arahant doesn't have contact. This has already been explained above.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:38 pm
Saying his back aches (which is what I assume you're referring to) is merely an acknowledge of sensory inpingement, and taking care of the body in response to that awareness. Per what was said to Coëmgenu, that is not vedanā.
A back ache is a type of pain. In the suttas pain is classified under vedanā. It is a type of vedanā. To say then that his back ached is to say he is experiencing a painful vedanā.

“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left."
See the last line. This sutta is comparing puthujjanas to sekhas.

The arahant doesn't have contact. This has already been explained above.
It's discussing an Arahant

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. This, bhikkhus, is called a noble disciple who is detached from birth, aging, and death; who is detached from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; who is detached from suffering, I say."

The Arahant is detached from vedanā, but this means he or she is experiencing vedanā. The condition for vedanā is contact, no?
No, "skilful means" is fake news
Based on the above then either the Buddha was lying, the suttas in question are corrupt or your interpretation is wrong. Either the Buddha experienced vedanā or he didn't, and we have suttas saying that he did. More on the Arahants and vedanā.
“What do you think, Assaji, is form permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”… —“Therefore … Seeing thus … He understands: ‘… there is no more for this state of being.’

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent’; he understands: ‘It is not held to’; he understands: ‘It is not delighted in.’ If he feels a painful feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent’; he understands: ‘It is not held to’; he understands: ‘It is not delighted in.’ If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent’; he understands: ‘It is not held to’; he understands: ‘It is not delighted in.’

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached.

“When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’

“Just as, Assaji, an oil lamp burns in dependence on the oil and the wick, and with the exhaustion of the oil and the wick it is extinguished through lack of fuel, so too, Assaji, when a bhikkhu feels a feeling terminating with the body … terminating with life … He understands: ‘With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.88/en/bodhi

How do you explain the discrepancy between what these suttas are saying and your own view that the Arahants have "experiences but not vedanā", to paraphrase you slightly?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Coëmgenu »

In relation to SN 36.6, the sutta actually says that they do experience contact and feelings, but that they do it "detached" (visaññutta). From the Ven Sujato translation:
So dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno kāmasukhaṁ nābhinandati.
When touched by painful feeling they don’t look forward to enjoying sensual pleasures.
...and...
So sukhañce vedanaṁ vedayati, visaññutto naṁ vedayati.
Dukkhañce vedanaṁ vedayati, visaññutto naṁ vedayati.
Adukkhamasukhañce vedanaṁ vedayati, visaññutto naṁ vedayati.
If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached.
If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.
If they feel a neutral feeling, they feel it detached.
EDIT: it looks like Ceisiwr beat me to it while I was typing. Well, there's the quote again from SN 36.6 anyways.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,

While you cling to your Abhidhamma-infused belief that vedanā "exists" or "does not exist" for an arahant, any explanation that accords with paticcasamuppada and vedananirodha is going to meet with your dissatisfaction, since the Buddha's teaching navigates between middle of such extremism.

Thus I will leave you to it shortly after one final clarifying comment. In the following regard, the way in which to treat vedanā is similar to how we treat vinnana or sankhara. When the word is presented, without qualification, as is... then it is referring to that which is fabricated via ignorance, via paticcasamuppada. There are examples of vinnana and sankhara which are not conditioned by ignorance. I would look up these terms for you if I was not on my phone - maybe I will try to find them later. It is acceptable to me that there is or may be an equivalent expression for vedanā, unconditioned by avijja. I don't know of one, but if it exists in the discourses it will be of a similar nature - not fabricated by avijja or paticcasamuppada.

:namaste:

(Coëmgenu - As for the quote above, I'd be wary of taking any Sujato translation as having the precision you seek. I learned today that he translates the "sankhara" of SN 12.15 as "choices". More precision will be found in the translations of vens Bodhi and Thanissaro.)

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:05 pm Greetings Ceisiwr,

While you cling to your Abhidhamma-infused belief that vedanā "exists" or "does not exist" for an arahant, any explanation that accords with paticcasamuppada and vedananirodha is going to meet with your dissatisfaction, since the Buddha's teaching navigates between middle of such extremism.

Thus I will leave you to it.
This is just a straw man. Nothing in my questions, arguments and quotes was Abhidhammic. I don’t even follow the Abhidhamma anymore, although the Abhidhammas can still be useful. Regardless this is merely irrelevant deflection. If you wish to bow out though that is of course fine.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:05 pm There are examples of vinnana and sankhara which are not conditioned by ignorance. I would look up these terms for you if I was not on my phone - maybe I will try to find them later.
Found them. The terms I was looking for were viññanam-anidassanam and suddhaṃ-saṅkhārasantatiṃ respectively.

If you know of a parallel for vedanā, which is not dependent upon avijja, then I accept the arahant experiences that. However, I do not know of such an expression.

But vedanā as vedanā, no. This has been explained above. To the Tathagata there is only tathata.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:58 pm In relation to SN 36.6, the sutta actually says that they do experience contact and feelings, but that they do it "detached" (visaññutta). From the Ven Sujato translation:

[...]

So sukhañce vedanaṁ vedayati, visaññutto naṁ vedayati.
Dukkhañce vedanaṁ vedayati, visaññutto naṁ vedayati.
Adukkhamasukhañce vedanaṁ vedayati, visaññutto naṁ vedayati.
If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached.
If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.
If they feel a neutral feeling, they feel it detached.
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:05 pmAs for the quote above, I'd be wary of taking any Sujato translation as having the precision you seek. I learned today that he translates the "sankhara" of SN 12.15 as "choices". More precision will be found in the translations of vens Bodhi and Thanissaro.
Ven Bodhi seems to have it functionally identical: "If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached." The visaññutta is "vi," functioning here as a negational prefix, followed by "saṃyukta," the same as in "Saṃyuktāgama," the Connected Discourses. Similarly, vedanaṁ vedayati seems pretty unambiguous.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:25 pm Found them. The terms I was looking for were viññanam-anidassanam and suddhaṃ-saṅkhārasantatiṃ respectively.
If we take viññanam-anidassanam and assume it doesn’t mean nibbāna for a moment, what is the condition for it?
If you know of a parallel for vedanā, which is not dependent upon avijja, then I accept the arahant experiences that. However, I do not know of such an expression.
There isn’t one as far as I know. The Buddha experienced vedanā, which had, someway back, ignorance as a prior condition.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:38 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:25 pm Found them. The terms I was looking for were viññanam-anidassanam and suddhaṃ-saṅkhārasantatiṃ respectively.
If we take viññanam-anidassanam and assume it doesn’t mean nibbāna for a moment, what is the condition for it?
It doesn't have "condition". It is asankhata. That is precisely my point. These are mere descriptors for an arahant's experience when there is nirodha... alternatively, tathata, more generally, would suffice. They're useful or necessary only to explain matters to people who think dhammas "exist" and that the Buddha will somehow go blind and deaf when he achieves salayatananirodha.
If you know of a parallel for vedanā, which is not dependent upon avijja, then I accept the arahant experiences that. However, I do not know of such an expression.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:38 pmThere isn’t one as far as I know. The Buddha experienced vedanā, which had, someway back, ignorance as a prior condition.
That's you calling it (unqualified) vedanā, not the Buddha, nor I. I have explained my position on (unqualified) vedanā.

Further, when ignorance falls, all that is dependent upon it falls... things do not just exist somehow and somewhere in stasis outside of that cessation, waiting to bear effect.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Coëmgenu »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:32 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:08 pm ... you saying that because there is still an eye, cessation has not happened in the here and now.
I say the opposite: When full extinguishment happened there is no eye.
"Metaphorical rebirth" was not one of your chosen terms (misremembering from me), but it seems that you think that when the Buddha spoke of "the eye," he spoke of it metaphorically, not as something to do with the generation of visual perception itself. Do you disagree?
mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:32 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:08 pm ... The perception, sañña, is bare sensorial awareness of the object at its most primitive: colour (and shape of colour) and whatnot...
Awareness like in consciousness, like in sense-cognition? That's a different aggregate. Perception is the faculty to differentiate one thing from another. No conceptualization here either, just discrimination.
Sensorial awareness, sensorial cognition. It is aware of "red," etc.
mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:32 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:08 pm ... you asked two questions:

1) Are you perceiving when not regarding the sky and clouds as sky and clouds?

and 2) Are you perceiving when not discriminating an idea as an idea?

To "regard as," which I take to mean "regard something as something," is to "conceive of." We've a concept of what we call the sky, and this concept is of "sky as sky." Similarly, I am not quite sure how you mean to use "discriminating" here, but if I take it as "differentiating," I get "when not differentiating one idea from another." I think you might have meant "when not conceiving of an idea as 'an idea.'" Is that wrong? How were you using "discriminate an idea?"
...
Yes, wrong, conceiving involves thought, that's a different aggregate again.
If conceiving involves thoughts, a different aggregate, why bring it up in relation to perception at all? What were you trying to say in doing so?
mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:32 pmYes, feeling, perception and thought go hand in hand. Sañña is not cognition it's perception, differentiation, discrimination.
This seems to be more a disagreement about the best translation for a term. If it's clearer, we can stick to only technical Pāli terms.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:48 pm It doesn't have "condition". It is asankhata. That is precisely my point. These are mere descriptors for an arahant's experience when there is nirodha... alternatively, tathata, more generally, would suffice. They're useful or necessary only to explain matters to people who think dhammas "exist" and that the Buddha will somehow go blind when he achieves salayatananirodha.
I’ll have to reply to the rest with more in depth tomorrow, or Saturday, but for now I take it from this then that Nibbana is a kind of non-describable consciousness?
That's you calling it (unqualified) vedanā, not the Buddha, nor I. I have explained my position on (unqualified) vedanā.
In the suttas I quoted the Buddha said that those who are awake still experienced vedanā. He also said elsewhere that vedanā is not without a condition, and that the condition for vedanā is contact.
Further, when ignorance falls, all that is dependent upon it falls... things do not just exist somehow and somewhere in stasis outside of that cessation, waiting to bear effect.
When ignorance ceases then contact will cease, yes.
things do not just exist somehow and somewhere in stasis outside of that cessation, waiting to bear effect.
Vaibhāṣika head explodes (begs forgiveness for the bad grammar).
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:53 pm I’ll have to reply to the rest and more in depth tomorrow, or Saturday, but for now I take it from this then that Nibbana is a kind of non-describable consciousness?
It is thus (tatha), devoid of sankhara.

Nibbana is what is, when sankharas are not. (think here of idappaccayatā)
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:53 pm He also said elsewhere that vedanā is not without a condition, and that the condition for vedanā is contact.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:53 pm When ignorance ceases then contact will cease, yes.
There you go. You've explained my position in your words. :thumbsup:
SN 56.20 wrote:"Monks, these four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. Which four?

"'This is stress,' is real, not unreal, not otherwise. 'This is the origination of stress,' is real, not unreal, not otherwise. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is real, not unreal, not otherwise. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is real, not unreal, not otherwise.

"These are the four things that are real, not unreal, not otherwise.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:00 am
There you go. You've explained my position in your words.
The “will” in my post was future tense.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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