Meditation only for monks?

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Bundokji
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by Bundokji »

dpcalder wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:26 am The reference to "seclusion & rapture" sounds like a pretty unmistakable reference to the jhanas, which are not possible through morality alone.
The reference has its meaning to what householders usually do and the duties associated with this label, hence the term "periodically" has been used. For example, cleaning with a broom is a duty associated with laity, but monks still do it when they clean the monastery. Seeing a monk cleaning with a broom is a periodic activity, but the monk is meant to live a meditative life hence the act of cleaning is a change in posture. On the other hand, a periodic sitting in seclusion and rapture by laity is breaking a norm in terms of lay life activities, and can be as deceptive of an appearance as viewing a broom essential to monasticism.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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mjaviem
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by mjaviem »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:22 am
dpcalder wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:26 am The reference to "seclusion & rapture" sounds like a pretty unmistakable reference to the jhanas, which are not possible through morality alone.
The reference has its meaning to what householders usually do and the duties associated with this label, hence the term "periodically" has been used. For example, cleaning with a broom is a duty associated with laity, but monks still do it when they clean the monastery. Seeing a monk cleaning with a broom is a periodic activity, but the monk is meant to live a meditative life hence the act of cleaning is a change in posture. On the other hand, a periodic sitting in seclusion and rapture by laity is breaking a norm in terms of lay life activities, and can be as deceptive of an appearance as viewing a broom essential to monasticism.
My main concern is if everyone is supposed to meditate at least once a day at home to develop concentration or if this is pointless since we are not secluded in a solitary hut for long periods of time, haven't renounced the householder life, and have to deal with many lay issues along the day each day. Pity sutta seems to be saying that it is correct practice even for laypeople. Right?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Bundokji
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by Bundokji »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:13 pm My main concern is if everyone is supposed to meditate at least once a day at home to develop concentration or if this is pointless since we are not secluded in a solitary hut for long periods of time, haven't renounced the householder life, and have to deal with many lay issues along the day each day. Pity sutta seems to be saying that it is correct practice even for laypeople. Right?
How such practices benefit the lay follower does not mean they are the same practice for monastics except through appearances (which is the basis for institutional reasoning). Possibly, it has to do with the way each group function and the interplay of forces within them, even if from an external point of view they might appear the same. For example, it is reasonable to say that the earth element is a center of gravity for a lay follower, which affects the way they function, the meaning of their actions and how references are constructed. Having a father, a mother or a family a to lay follower is a real event which is little affected by the fact of endless cycles of death and rebirth. For a monastic on the other hand, renouncing the family is a real event which would enable a different interplay of forces to take place.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
justindesilva
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by justindesilva »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:13 pm
Bundokji wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:22 am
dpcalder wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:26 am The reference to "seclusion & rapture" sounds like a pretty unmistakable reference to the jhanas, which are not possible through morality alone.
The reference has its meaning to what householders usually do and the duties associated with this label, hence the term "periodically" has been used. For example, cleaning with a broom is a duty associated with laity, but monks still do it when they clean the monastery. Seeing a monk cleaning with a broom is a periodic activity, but the monk is meant to live a meditative life hence the act of cleaning is a change in posture. On the other hand, a periodic sitting in seclusion and rapture by laity is breaking a norm in terms of lay life activities, and can be as deceptive of an appearance as viewing a broom essential to monasticism.
My main concern is if everyone is supposed to meditate at least once a day at home to develop concentration or if this is pointless since we are not secluded in a solitary hut for long periods of time, haven't renounced the householder life, and have to deal with many lay issues along the day each day. Pity sutta seems to be saying that it is correct practice even for laypeople. Right?
With yoniso manasikara explained in sabbasawa sutta, one would need to be in contemplation or meditation from moment to moment with each act traced mindfully.
Alino
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by Alino »

Should lay people practice the deminishing of their sufferings?
Yes...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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mjaviem
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by mjaviem »

justindesilva wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:48 am With yoniso manasikara explained in sabbasawa sutta, one would need to be in contemplation or meditation from moment to moment with each act traced mindfully.
Thank you. And, I don't know, I think yoniso manasikara has more to do with Right sati and Right effort than with Right samadhi. Do you agree? If we, laypersons, are in front of a TV with sensually enticing images, our sati will show us that we should restrain our senses and abandon any unwholesome arisen states but I wouldn't call it concentration until we actively practice whichever is the right technique to develop concentration (e.g. anapanasati). And I think seclusion is required to practise concentration in order to not be disturbed by requests and demands from people.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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mjaviem
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by mjaviem »

Alino wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:31 am Should lay people practice the deminishing of their sufferings?
Yes...
Ok, but how? The practice of samadhi is part of the noble eightfold path to liberation. Is it possible to be a layperson and get at least some benefit in this deminishing of suffering by practising meditation at home or is it only beneficial when taking long periods of a monk-like life (e.g. in a retreat or whatever)?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Alino
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by Alino »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:52 am
Alino wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:31 am Should lay people practice the deminishing of their sufferings?
Yes...
Ok, but how? The practice of samadhi is part of the noble eightfold path to liberation. Is it possible to be a layperson and get at least some benefit in this deminishing of suffering by practising meditation at home or is it only beneficial when taking long periods of a monk-like life (e.g. in a retreat or whatever)?
Beings serious with développement of the N8P.

Good way is to take each of the factor of N8P and see how to develop it by concrète means...

It can be à long period before N8P will be developed enought in order to bear fruit... We never know.

In order to be strong spiritualy we need to develop and ballance 5 Indryas : Confidence/Faith - Energy - Sati - Samadhi - Panna

When doubts arise, one of the possible factors is - disballance in Indryas, lack of Saddha.

So one need to go on the Path, and try to keep ballance on it...

Imho
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
justindesilva
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by justindesilva »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:46 am
justindesilva wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:48 am With yoniso manasikara explained in sabbasawa sutta, one would need to be in contemplation or meditation from moment to moment with each act traced mindfully.
Thank you. And, I don't know, I think yoniso manasikara has more to do with Right sati and Right effort than with Right samadhi. Do you agree? If we, laypersons, are in front of a TV with sensually enticing images, our sati will show us that we should restrain our senses and abandon any unwholesome arisen states but I wouldn't call it concentration until we actively practice whichever is the right technique to develop concentration (e.g. anapanasati). And I think seclusion is required to practise concentration in order to not be disturbed by requests and demands from people.
Right effort and right sati are two essential pre requisites for samma or right samadhi.
In fact I have seen samma explained as harmonious when harmony is where lobha, dosa moha are absent.
Ayoniso Manasikara is analogous to when a person living in an area thick with serpents and defilements compared with serpents.
One can survive in such a situation only with an aporopriate seeking mind for safety. Hence yoniso manasikara is also appropriate mindfulness to seek safe areas of citta leading to sapta bojjanga.
form
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by form »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:13 pm
Bundokji wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:22 am
dpcalder wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:26 am The reference to "seclusion & rapture" sounds like a pretty unmistakable reference to the jhanas, which are not possible through morality alone.
The reference has its meaning to what householders usually do and the duties associated with this label, hence the term "periodically" has been used. For example, cleaning with a broom is a duty associated with laity, but monks still do it when they clean the monastery. Seeing a monk cleaning with a broom is a periodic activity, but the monk is meant to live a meditative life hence the act of cleaning is a change in posture. On the other hand, a periodic sitting in seclusion and rapture by laity is breaking a norm in terms of lay life activities, and can be as deceptive of an appearance as viewing a broom essential to monasticism.
My main concern is if everyone is supposed to meditate at least once a day at home to develop concentration or if this is pointless since we are not secluded in a solitary hut for long periods of time, haven't renounced the householder life, and have to deal with many lay issues along the day each day. Pity sutta seems to be saying that it is correct practice even for laypeople. Right?
U need to be able to come in and out of jhanas and master all 4 qualities that the Buddha mentioned.
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mjaviem
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by mjaviem »

form wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:43 am U need to be able to come in and out of jhanas and master all 4 qualities that the Buddha mentioned.
Yes, and it seems this mastery won't be achieved even after years of meditating after work when back at home. Is it? But the more of a bhikkhu's life style we have the higher the chances we have? Is it so?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
form
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by form »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:52 am
form wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:43 am U need to be able to come in and out of jhanas and master all 4 qualities that the Buddha mentioned.
Yes, and it seems this mastery won't be achieved even after years of meditating after work when back at home. Is it? But the more of a bhikkhu's life style we have the higher the chances we have? Is it so?
Possible. But the person will be performed as somewhat withdrawn by others. This is because the person will have been diligently practicing the last three factors of the eightfold paths a lot.
dpcalder
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by dpcalder »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:13 pm
Bundokji wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:22 am
dpcalder wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:26 am The reference to "seclusion & rapture" sounds like a pretty unmistakable reference to the jhanas, which are not possible through morality alone.
The reference has its meaning to what householders usually do and the duties associated with this label, hence the term "periodically" has been used. For example, cleaning with a broom is a duty associated with laity, but monks still do it when they clean the monastery. Seeing a monk cleaning with a broom is a periodic activity, but the monk is meant to live a meditative life hence the act of cleaning is a change in posture. On the other hand, a periodic sitting in seclusion and rapture by laity is breaking a norm in terms of lay life activities, and can be as deceptive of an appearance as viewing a broom essential to monasticism.
My main concern is if everyone is supposed to meditate at least once a day at home to develop concentration or if this is pointless since we are not secluded in a solitary hut for long periods of time, haven't renounced the householder life, and have to deal with many lay issues along the day each day. Pity sutta seems to be saying that it is correct practice even for laypeople. Right?
Yes, that is my interpretation, I can't imagine what else the text can be saying. Of course, it is precisely because of all of these duties that spiritual progress as a lay person is regarded as very difficult.
dpcalder
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by dpcalder »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:52 am
form wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:43 am U need to be able to come in and out of jhanas and master all 4 qualities that the Buddha mentioned.
Yes, and it seems this mastery won't be achieved even after years of meditating after work when back at home. Is it? But the more of a bhikkhu's life style we have the higher the chances we have? Is it so?
It is possible, but very difficult, and improbable. I am almost possible there are accounts of lay people becoming fully enlightened as householders, but it is very difficult and I think most lay people simply hope for a better reincarnation.
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mjaviem
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Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by mjaviem »

dpcalder wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:51 am It is possible, but very difficult, and improbable. I am almost possible there are accounts of lay people becoming fully enlightened as householders, but it is very difficult and I think most lay people simply hope for a better reincarnation.
It seems so. At least we can expect, a good life now and in the future. But we also can turn our lives into more spiritual lives and be more devoted to the practice. This is also possible to get to do I think.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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