Meditation only for monks?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
dpcalder
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:02 pm

Meditation only for monks?

Post by dpcalder »

I have heard some people argue that the idea that even lay people should meditate is a recent invention that results from the modern, Burmese Vipassana movement, and that ordinarily, lay people were expected to simply cultivate enough merit to acquire a decent rebirth. Is this true? Are mindfulness and meditation only for lay people? Does the Pali Canon address this?
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by Ceisiwr »

dpcalder wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:21 pm I have heard some people argue that the idea that even lay people should meditate is a recent invention that results from the modern, Burmese Vipassana movement, and that ordinarily, lay people were expected to simply cultivate enough merit to acquire a decent rebirth. Is this true? Are mindfulness and meditation only for lay people? Does the Pali Canon address this?
The suttas talk of layfolks attaining Jhāna. Hard to do as a layman or woman, but not impossible.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:34 pm ... The suttas talk of layfolks attaining Jhāna. Hard to do as a layman or woman, but not impossible.
It would be appreciated if you quote one sutta since I think those laypeople went into the homeless life first. (Thanks in advance and no hurries)
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by Sam Vara »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:34 pm ... The suttas talk of layfolks attaining Jhāna. Hard to do as a layman or woman, but not impossible.
It would be appreciated if you quote one sutta since I think those laypeople went into the homeless life first. (Thanks in advance and no hurries)
Here's one:
"Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.' That's how you should train yourself."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipita ... .than.html
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by Bundokji »

From an institutional POV, this is true. The lay community/householders are an institution that organize themselves on the basis of conventional reality, not going beyond it. Monasticism, is another institution, is based on individuals who see conventional reality, which necessitates rebirth, as unsatisfactory. This division is inline with two truths doctrine, which can be found in Buddhism and Taoism. The relationship between the two institutions is complementary, meaning that the lay provide monks with food for the body while monastics provide the lay with food for the heart, by assisting them to get higher rebirths, not through meditation, but through morality.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by Sam Vara »

And then there's MN51, where Pessa, who is a lay disciple, an elephant-trainer, says this:
“It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing, how much the Buddha has clearly described the four kinds of mindfulness meditation! They are in order to purify sentient beings, to get past sorrow and crying, to make an end of pain and sadness, to end the cycle of suffering, and to realize extinguishment. For we white-clothed laypeople also from time to time meditate with our minds well established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. We meditate observing an aspect of the body … feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by mjaviem »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:41 pm
mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:34 pm ... The suttas talk of layfolks attaining Jhāna. Hard to do as a layman or woman, but not impossible.
It would be appreciated if you quote one sutta since I think those laypeople went into the homeless life first. (Thanks in advance and no hurries)
Here's one:
"Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.' That's how you should train yourself."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipita ... .than.html
Very good thank you Sam Vara. I would add that meditation for we laypeople improves mindfulness. But I don't know if there's sutta support for this claim.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by mjaviem »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:53 pm And then there's MN51, where Pessa, who is a lay disciple, an elephant-trainer, says this:
“It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing, how much the Buddha has clearly described the four kinds of mindfulness meditation! They are in order to purify sentient beings, to get past sorrow and crying, to make an end of pain and sadness, to end the cycle of suffering, and to realize extinguishment. For we white-clothed laypeople also from time to time meditate with our minds well established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. We meditate observing an aspect of the body … feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
Mmm, not sure because then it says
A householder hears that teaching, or a householder’s child, or someone reborn in some clan. They gain faith in the Realized One, and reflect: ‘Living in a house is cramped and dirty, but the life of one gone forth is wide open. It’s not easy for someone living at home to lead the spiritual life utterly full and pure, like a polished shell. Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’ After some time they give up a large or small fortune, and a large or small family circle. They shave off hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness.

Once they’ve gone forth, they take up the training and livelihood of the mendicants
At least we know laypeople meditated 2500 years back
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by SarathW »

Lay people are expect to follow the Noble Eightfold Path.
Satipathhana (Samma Sati) is a form of Samatha / Vipassana meditation.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
dpcalder
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:02 pm

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by dpcalder »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:45 pm From an institutional POV, this is true. The lay community/householders are an institution that organize themselves on the basis of conventional reality, not going beyond it. Monasticism, is another institution, is based on individuals who see conventional reality, which necessitates rebirth, as unsatisfactory. This division is inline with two truths doctrine, which can be found in Buddhism and Taoism. The relationship between the two institutions is complementary, meaning that the lay provide monks with food for the body while monastics provide the lay with food for the heart, by assisting them to get higher rebirths, not through meditation, but through morality.
What about the Piti Sutta?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.' That's how you should train yourself."

When this was said, Ven. Sariputta said to the Blessed One, "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how well put that was by the Blessed One: 'Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, "We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick." So you should train yourself, "Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture." That's how you should train yourself.'

"Lord, when a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time."

[The Blessed One said:] "Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time.""

The reference to "seclusion & rapture" sounds like a pretty unmistakable reference to the jhanas, which are not possible through morality alone.
dpcalder
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:02 pm

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by dpcalder »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:53 pm And then there's MN51, where Pessa, who is a lay disciple, an elephant-trainer, says this:
“It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing, how much the Buddha has clearly described the four kinds of mindfulness meditation! They are in order to purify sentient beings, to get past sorrow and crying, to make an end of pain and sadness, to end the cycle of suffering, and to realize extinguishment. For we white-clothed laypeople also from time to time meditate with our minds well established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. We meditate observing an aspect of the body … feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
Thank you for this! I would say this pretty straightforwardly establishes that meditation is for everyone who can, not just monks, wouldn't you agree?

Does this refer to satipatthana or also anapanasati?
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by confusedlayman »

citta did 4 jhana

another laywomen even had mind reading power...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by justindesilva »

dpcalder wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:28 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:53 pm And then there's MN51, where Pessa, who is a lay disciple, an elephant-trainer, says this:
“It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing, how much the Buddha has clearly described the four kinds of mindfulness meditation! They are in order to purify sentient beings, to get past sorrow and crying, to make an end of pain and sadness, to end the cycle of suffering, and to realize extinguishment. For we white-clothed laypeople also from time to time meditate with our minds well established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. We meditate observing an aspect of the body … feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
Thank you for this! I would say this pretty straightforwardly establishes that meditation is for everyone who can, not just monks, wouldn't you agree?

Does this refer to satipatthana or also anapanasati?
The buddhist pali cannon also called 3 baskets are of 3 sections. They are sutta pitaka, vinaya pitaka and abhidamma pitaka from which vinaya pitaka is exclusively meant for bikkhus. Sutta pitaka is used by lay people and bikkus to explain darma. Abhidamma pitaka been in pali is mostly used by bikkhus to explain citta (mind) and its qualities (cetasika), but is used by lay and the monastic. Meditation mostly is contained in abhidamma pitaka, contains and satara satipattana which is an important tool for lay and monastics to obtain jhana and go beyond.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by Sam Vara »

dpcalder wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:28 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:53 pm And then there's MN51, where Pessa, who is a lay disciple, an elephant-trainer, says this:
“It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing, how much the Buddha has clearly described the four kinds of mindfulness meditation! They are in order to purify sentient beings, to get past sorrow and crying, to make an end of pain and sadness, to end the cycle of suffering, and to realize extinguishment. For we white-clothed laypeople also from time to time meditate with our minds well established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. We meditate observing an aspect of the body … feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
Thank you for this! I would say this pretty straightforwardly establishes that meditation is for everyone who can, not just monks, wouldn't you agree?

Does this refer to satipatthana or also anapanasati?
From the two quotes I gave, I would think both. I have been encouraged and instructed by monastics in both, although my teacher strongly favours anapanasati.
BrokenBones
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Meditation only for monks?

Post by BrokenBones »

justindesilva wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:20 am
dpcalder wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:28 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:53 pm

The buddhist pali cannon also called 3 baskets are of 3 sections. They are sutta pitaka, vinaya pitaka and abhidamma pitaka from which vinaya pitaka is exclusively meant for bikkhus. Sutta pitaka is used by lay people and bikkus to explain darma. Abhidamma pitaka been in pali is mostly used by bikkhus to explain citta (mind) and its qualities (cetasika), but is used by lay and the monastic. Meditation mostly is contained in abhidamma pitaka, contains and satara satipattana which is an important tool for lay and monastics to obtain jhana and go beyond.
That has little to do with the OP and is an unusual view to say the least.
Post Reply