The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
TRobinson465
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by TRobinson465 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:44 am

According to Buddhist cosmology, you can't get into the Brahma realms without the Jhānas anymore than you can get into the formless realms without the formless attainments.
I agree you cant get into the brahma realms without jhanas. but does that mean if you have jhana you have to go to the brahma realm? I think some ariyas did have jhanas but were reborn in the lower heavenly realms for some other reason than them not having jhanas. perhaps (my own speculation) by choice or out of some reason we dont understand.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by Ceisiwr »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:50 am

I dont think the last part is true. Non buddhists can attain the 4 jhanas, but that doesnt mean the ariyas do not attain jhanas as well. This would imply that for Buddhists, one who attains even the first jhana (which is needed to get into the lowest brahma realms) is automatically at least a non-returner.
Yes. A non-returner has abandoned the fetter of lust for sensual pleasures, due to his attainment. What the non-returner is stuck on now is Jhāna itself (or the formless). One pleasure dislodges another.


‘That monk has the first absorption, that monk the second absorption, that monk the third, that monk the fourth; that monk is a stream-enterer, that monk a once-returner, that a non-returner, that a perfected one; that monk has the three true insights, and that the six direct knowledges.’

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-p ... ipt=latin
That is interesting. Do we see anything like that in the suttas?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by Ceisiwr »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:52 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:44 am

According to Buddhist cosmology, you can't get into the Brahma realms without the Jhānas anymore than you can get into the formless realms without the formless attainments.
I agree you cant get into the brahma realms without jhanas. but does that mean if you have jhana you have to go to the brahma realm? I think some ariyas did have jhanas but were reborn in the lower heavenly realms for some other reason than them not having jhanas. perhaps (my own speculation) by choice or out of some reason we dont understand.
Sure that is possible. Does this also apply to a sotāpanna then? How do we square that with the texts which say the Sotāpanna does not go to a lower realm? If we say sotāpannas do not go to a lower realm at all, why would someone who has attained the Jhānas go there? Perhaps the teaching that some can be good yet still have bad rebirth only applies to ordinary people?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by cappuccino »

the stream leads away from lower realms


not toward lower realms
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
TRobinson465
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by TRobinson465 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:58 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:52 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:44 am

According to Buddhist cosmology, you can't get into the Brahma realms without the Jhānas anymore than you can get into the formless realms without the formless attainments.
I agree you cant get into the brahma realms without jhanas. but does that mean if you have jhana you have to go to the brahma realm? I think some ariyas did have jhanas but were reborn in the lower heavenly realms for some other reason than them not having jhanas. perhaps (my own speculation) by choice or out of some reason we dont understand.
Sure that is possible. Does this also apply to a sotāpanna then? How do we square that with the texts which say the Sotāpanna does not go to a lower realm? If we say sotāpannas do not go to a lower realm at all, why would someone who has attained the Jhānas go there? Perhaps the teaching that some can be good yet still have bad rebirth only applies to ordinary people?
I dont understand how that is a contradiction. i would say that actually supports the idea that ariyas have jhanas. because ariyas being unable to be reborn in lower realms implies they are higher than those with jhana but arent ariyas. Furthermore, i cant find it, but if you are familiar with the hierarchy of merit recipients, it states that giving to a sotapanna is higher than giving to a non-Buddhist with abhinna (which requires jhanas). So again i think based on the information, ariyas do have jhanas but dont go to the brahma realm for some other reason than that they are not able to due to lack of jhana.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by TRobinson465 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:55 am

That is interesting. Do we see anything like that in the suttas?
“Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the first jhana. Which five? Stinginess as to one’s monastery [lodgings], stinginess as to one’s family [of supporters], stinginess as to one’s gains, stinginess as to one’s status, and ingratitude. Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the first jhana.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.264/en/suj ... ipt=latin
“Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana… the third jhana… the fourth jhana; incapable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry… the fruit of once-returning… the fruit of non-returning… arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one’s monastery [lodgings], stinginess as to one’s family [of supporters], stinginess as to one’s gains, stinginess as to one’s status, and ingratitude. Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana… the third jhana… the fourth jhana; one is incapable realizing the fruit of stream-entry… the fruit of once-returning… the fruit of non-returning… arahantship.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.265-271/en ... ript=latin
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by robertk »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:46 pm
3) A Sotāpanna & Sakadagami "know" or have "seen" nibbāna, yet both still have desires for sensual pleasures such as music, sex, food etc. How is this possible?

Thoughts?
The sotapanna and sakadagami have eradicated only the types of citta associated with ditthi, wrong view (see highlighted below). Not other types.
Yet they have attentuated to some degree the strength of other types- for example they can never be stingy or have anger to the extent of killing etc.
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidh ... bhi-04.htm
the eight types of lobha-mula-citta are:

1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata-vippayuttam , asankharikam ekam )

4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankhhrikam ekam)


The two type of dosa-mula-citta are:

1. Accompanied by unpleasant feeling, arising with anger, unprompted (Domanassa-sahagatam, patigha-sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

2. Accompanied by unpleasant feeling, arising with anger, prompted (Domanassa-sahagatam,
patigha-sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

The two types of moha-mula-citta are:

1. Arising with indifferent feeling, accompanied by doubt (Upekkha-sahagatam., vicikiccha-
sampayuttam)

2. Arising with indifferent feeling, accompanied by restlessness (Upekkha-sahagatam, uddhacca- sampayuttam)
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by Ontheway »

robertk wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:32 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:46 pm
3) A Sotāpanna & Sakadagami "know" or have "seen" nibbāna, yet both still have desires for sensual pleasures such as music, sex, food etc. How is this possible?

Thoughts?
The sotapanna and sakadagami have eradicated only the types of citta associated with ditthi, wrong view (see highlighted below). Not other types.
Yet they have attentuated to some degree the strength of other types- they can never be stingy or have anger to the extent of killing etc.
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidh ... bhi-04.htm
the eight types of lobha-mula-citta are:

1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata-vippayuttam , asankharikam ekam )

4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankhhrikam ekam)


The two type of dosa-mula-citta are:

1. Accompanied by unpleasant feeling, arising with anger, unprompted (Domanassa-sahagatam, patigha-sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

2. Accompanied by unpleasant feeling, arising with anger, prompted (Domanassa-sahagatam,
patigha-sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

The two types of moha-mula-citta are:

1. Arising with indifferent feeling, accompanied by doubt (Upekkha-sahagatam., vicikiccha-
sampayuttam)

2. Arising with indifferent feeling, accompanied by restlessness (Upekkha-sahagatam, uddhacca- sampayuttam)
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Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by Ceisiwr »

After the rainy season the sky is clear and cloudless. And when the sun rises, it dispels all the darkness from the sky as it shines and glows and radiates.

In the same way, when the stainless, immaculate vision of the teaching arises in a noble disciple, three fetters are given up: identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.

Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”
- AN 3.94

This is very interesting. Notice here that they become a sotāpanna before going on to develop the Jhānas later. So, when they became a sotāpanna they did not have any Jhāna. Then, when they do attain Jhāna they become a non-returner.

"If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:03 pm
After the rainy season the sky is clear and cloudless. And when the sun rises, it dispels all the darkness from the sky as it shines and glows and radiates.

In the same way, when the stainless, immaculate vision of the teaching arises in a noble disciple, three fetters are given up: identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.

Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”
- AN 3.94

This is very interesting. Notice here that they become a sotāpanna before going on to develop the Jhānas later. So, when they became a sotāpanna they did not have any Jhāna. Then, when they do attain Jhāna they become a non-returner.

"If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”
The above says doing jhana after becoming anagami..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:26 pm
The above says doing jhana after becoming anagami..
This is stream entry.

"In the same way, when the stainless, immaculate vision of the teaching arises in a noble disciple, three fetters are given up: identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances."

After achieving stream entry, then the Jhānas are achieved

"Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected."

It then looks like at this point they become a non-returner.

"If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world."
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
TRobinson465
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by TRobinson465 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:03 pm
After the rainy season the sky is clear and cloudless. And when the sun rises, it dispels all the darkness from the sky as it shines and glows and radiates.

In the same way, when the stainless, immaculate vision of the teaching arises in a noble disciple, three fetters are given up: identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.

Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”
- AN 3.94

This is very interesting. Notice here that they become a sotāpanna before going on to develop the Jhānas later. So, when they became a sotāpanna they did not have any Jhāna. Then, when they do attain Jhāna they become a non-returner.

"If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”
How interesting. so it seems jhana is not necessary to become a sotapanna yet there can be monks who have jhana but arent ariyas. Enlightenment is an interestingly complex thing it seems.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by Ceisiwr »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:45 pm

How interesting. so it seems jhana is not necessary to become a sotapanna yet there can be monks who have jhana but arent ariyas. Enlightenment is an interestingly complex thing it seems.
Meditation can be experienced in diverse ways. Perhaps awakening is too in a way? Humans and the human experience are diverse and complex after all. Then again perhaps not. I've heard argument before that the 4 stages of awakening could be a later idea, but seeing as how they are so ubiquitous in the literature amongst the different schools I don't see how this can be. Perhaps instead there was difficulty in working out just what the difference was between them all?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by Ceisiwr »

Another interesting sutta
“Sir, Ānanda, how on earth are we supposed to understand the teaching taught by the Buddha, when the chaste and the unchaste are both reborn in exactly the same place in the next life? My father Purāṇa was celibate, set apart, avoiding the common practice of sex. When he passed away the Buddha declared that he was a once-returner, who was reborn in the company of the Joyful Gods. But my uncle Isidatta was not celibate; he lived content with his wife. When he passed away the Buddha declared that he was also a once-returner, who was reborn in the company of the Joyful Gods."
https://suttacentral.net/an10.75/en/suj ... ript=latin

Not all Once-Returners then come back as human. Here we have two who went to the Joyful Gods. This is once again below the Brahma worlds, and so suggests that Once-Return is a state without any Jhāna. What is also interesting in this sutta is this
Take a certain person who is unethical. But they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where that unethical conduct ceases without anything left over. And they have listened and learned and comprehended theoretically and found at least temporary freedom. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re headed for a higher place, not a lower. They’re going to a higher place, not a lower.
So a Once-Returner, ethical or not, theoretically understands dependent origination and has found “temporary freedom”. Perhaps this means they have only experienced nibbāna for a moment?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Curious Case of the Sotāpanna & Sakadagami

Post by Ceisiwr »

The temporary freedom comes up again in the famous Godhika sutta
Now on that occasion the Venerable Godhika was dwelling on the Black Rock on the Isigili Slope. Then, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind, but he fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A second time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind, but he fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A third time…A fourth time … A fifth time…A sixth time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind, but he fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A seventh time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind.

Then it occurred to the Venerable Godhika: “Six times already I have fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Let me use the knife.”
Godhika then seems to have fallen away from stream-entry or once-return. What is more interesting is in stream-entry and once-return being associated with "temporary release". What does this mean? If we follow Gombrich in equating cetovimutti with awakening, then possibly what it means is that the stream-enterer or once-returner temporarily knows nibbāna (and so Emptiness, Nothingness and Signless) or, on another reading, they know it but not in a "full" way. They still cling, which pulls them away from it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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