What is the detailed meaning of “yaṃ kiñci samuda­ya­ dhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirōdha dhammam“?

[Ceisiwr]

if you stop trying to enjoy this world then… you will not be reborn in it again

DO/DC is not about stopping the rebirth. It is how the Dukkha arises and how the Dukkha ceases. To know DO is to know how to cease the Dukkha.

Buddha Teaching is about Anatta. If there is no self, then how can one is reborn?

Birth is in dependent origination, and it’s always defined in quite literal terms in the suttas and northern parallels.

[cappuccino]

If there is no self, then how can one is reborn?

not self is different than no self

[SarathW]

Here is something I wrote about this sentence, based on Bhikkhu Nananada's writings on meditation:
viewtopic.php?p=478821#p478821

A key point that Ven Nananda makes is that craving gets in the way of seeing that everything that has beginning has an ending.

Why do we say that craving is concealing the fact of
cessation? Because craving is on the side of ‘arising.’ As soon as
a cessation occurs, craving as the regenerator prompts a re-
arising. As the phrase ‘taṇhā ponobhavikā nandirāgasahagatā
tatratatrābhinandinī’ [*] implies, craving as the regenerator is
always out to make for re-becoming. It is accompanied by delight
and lust, and it delights now-here-now-there. Because of its very
nature of taking delight now here-now there, craving says, ‘Don't
worry about the breath that is gone, catch hold of another breath.
Take hold of another breath’. It tempts and prompts. But when
dispassion sets in, this tendency to tempt and prompt becomes
less and less. It is reduced, with the result, that the cessation
aspect becomes more prominent – and with it, the passing away,
the breaking-up, the destruction. That way, one comes to see the
cessation of mind-objects also and that is nirodhānupassanā – the
contemplation of cessation.

[*] In context from: https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi#sc5
“Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination.

Mike

Thanks Mike.
How wonderful to learn this very simple thing we all know by experience.
Why do we have to learn this from someone else!
It appears this is what is called Yonisomanasikara which qualifies to become a Sotapanna.
So this Samudaya and Nirodha is the same as the one in Four Noble Truths?

[SarathW]

If there is no self, then how can one is reborn?

not self is different than no self

Self-view is there until you become a Sotapanna and self-identification ends by becoming an Arahant.

[cappuccino]

self-identification ends by becoming an Arahant.

lack of identification is different than no self

[Joe.c]

For me no self or not self is described in SN 22.155 Sakkāyadiṭṭhi Sutta and SN 22.59

Are we in agreement here or is there any other definition?

Of course, Anatta can only be fully realized by Arahant or high level of Anagami by going up to Sanna-Vedayita-Nirodha (Stopping the mind, dead body)

[cappuccino]

Are we in agreement here or is there any other definition?

On Self, No Self, and Not-self

[Joe.c]

I see the SN 44.10. It is not easy to describe to someone who is an outsider in this Sutta.

Basically once you are awaken and Buddha is an awaken one from dream of existence.

and Most people dreaming they are existing.

If you are awake, How do you describe whether you exist or not exist? It might be very difficult for outsider to grasp the understanding.

[cappuccino]

If you are awake, How do you describe whether you exist or not exist?

does not apply

[mikenz66]

So this Samudaya and Nirodha is the same as the one in Four Noble Truths?

I'm not quite sure what exactly you are asking here, but what I got from Ven Nanananda's exposition was some insight into the connection between the Noble Truths (in particular the second - with craving as the cause) and Kondanna's utterance about arising and passing away. I only quoted a small part of the exposition - I suggest reading it yourself.


Mike

[SarathW]

So this Samudaya and Nirodha is the same as the one in Four Noble Truths?

I'm not quite sure what exactly you are asking here, but what I got from Ven Nanananda's exposition was some insight into the connection between the Noble Truths (in particular the second - with craving as the cause) and Kondanna's utterance about arising and passing away. I only quoted a small part of the exposition - I suggest reading it yourself.


Mike

In the four Noble Truths, there is Samudaya Sacca and Nirodha Sacca. My question was whether this Samudaya and Nirodha is the same as the Samudaya and Nirodha in my OP question.

[Joe.c]

does not apply

I can intepret these as two ways. Depending on what you meant in your mind.

1. Either you say an awaken one, can't be said exist or not exist? Or
2. That statement doesnt apply for this question.

For number 1, I know you understand.

For number 2, I know you still dont get it.

But in general not easy to understand an awaken person with regular human mind (mind with hindrances).

If you understand DN9 Poṭṭhapādasutta, maybe you will sort of get it. But the translation is a bit confusing.

One needs to progress thru the N8FP step by step to get to the awakening. And First step is right view.

[mikenz66]

In the four Noble Truths, there is Samudaya Sacca and Nirodha Sacca. My question was whether this Samudaya and Nirodha is the same as the Samudaya and Nirodha in my OP question.

I think so. That's the point of the text I referred to from Bhikkhu Nanananda. There is the arising of suffering and the cessation of suffering in truths. And Koṇḍañña's realisation was that anything that arises also ceases. Bhikkhu Nanananda emphasises that the inability to be aware of ceasing is due to craving, which is mentioned in the second truth.


Mike

[Ontheway]

if you stop trying to enjoy this world then… you will not be reborn in it again

DO/DC is not about stopping the rebirth. It is how the Dukkha arises and how the Dukkha ceases. To know DO is to know how to cease the Dukkha.

Buddha Teaching is about Anatta. If there is no self, then how can one is reborn?

So....no rebirth? Only this one life as if 'YOLO'? Paticca Samuppada, being the central teaching of the Buddha, and it doesn't contain the rebirth issue?

[Joe.c]

I dont say there is no birth of being. But if you practice diligently you can transcend all those that have defilements.

Check MN 117 Great 40

There is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment. And there is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path.

To understand DO and practice N8FP is to transcend all those things such as kamma vipaka, rebirth. Otherwise, there is no way for a person to achieve Arahant (perfected) in this life.

Also if you understand SN 56.11 dhammacakkappavatana Sutta

Mendicants, these two extremes should not be cultivated by one who has gone forth. What two? Indulgence in sensual pleasures, which is low, crude, ordinary, ignoble, and pointless. And indulgence in self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and pointless. Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One woke up by understanding the middle way of practice, which gives vision and knowledge, and leads to peace, direct knowledge, awakening, and extinguishment.

Also check MN 2 sabbasava sutta if one is thinking about past, present or future. They will not be able to break the 3 low fetters.

for uneducated ordinary people…When they attend improperly in this way, one of the following six views arises in them and is taken as a genuine fact. The view: ‘My self exists in an absolute sense.’ The view: ‘My self does not exist in an absolute sense.’ The view: ‘I perceive the self with the self.’ The view: ‘I perceive what is not-self with the self.’ The view: ‘I perceive the self with what is not-self.’ Or they have such a view: ‘This self of mine is he who speaks and feels and experiences the results of good and bad deeds in all the different realms. This self is permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable, and will last forever and ever.’ This is called a misconception, the thicket of views, the desert of views, the trick of views, the evasiveness of views, the fetter of views. An uneducated ordinary person who is fettered by views is not freed from birth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.They’re not freed from suffering, I say.