What is the detailed meaning of “yaṃ kiñci samuda­ya­ dhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirōdha dhammam“?

[SarathW]

What is the detailed meaning of “yaṃ kiñci samuda­ya­ dhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirōdha dhammam“?

Dhamma­cakkap­pa­vat­ta­na Sutta (SN 56.11)

“Everything that has a beginning has an end.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/suj ... ript=latin

[Ontheway]

What is the detailed meaning of “yaṃ kiñci samuda­ya­ dhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirōdha dhammam“?

Dhamma­cakkap­pa­vat­ta­na Sutta (SN 56.11)

“Everything that has a beginning has an end.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/suj ... ript=latin

I don't think the translation by Bhante Sujato is correct...

This would be more accurate, as it brings out the essence of Paticca-samuppada, IMO.

Whatever is subject to origination all that is subject to cessation.

[SarathW]

What I like to know is whether this OP statement is related to the Second and Third Noble truths. (Samudaya Satya and Nirodha Satya)

[Ontheway]

That statement signifies the attainment of Sotapanna Phala. Hence, the statement is related to the understanding of "Cattari Ariyasaccani". All four Noble Truths are within the scope of that statement.

[Joe.c]

My understanding is:

The statement is related to Anicca, understanding for a stream enterer, when the dhamma eye has arised.

Dhamma here is similar to dhammanupasana in satipatthana. It is referring to pancakandha, 4 noble truth, DO, the rests.

Dhamma means mind objects/thoughts/experience of mano-vinnana.

The statement is related to SEEing only of the whole 4 noble truths. Although they need to know and develop the path N8FP by themselves.

[mikenz66]

Hi Ontheway,

What is the detailed meaning of “yaṃ kiñci samuda­ya­ dhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirōdha dhammam“?

Dhamma­cakkap­pa­vat­ta­na Sutta (SN 56.11)

“Everything that has a beginning has an end.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/suj ... ript=latin

I don't think the translation by Bhante Sujato is correct...

This would be more accurate, as it brings out the essence of Paticca-samuppada, IMO.

Whatever is subject to origination all that is subject to cessation.

I actually think that the meaning is identical. If something is "subject to origination" it "has a beginning".

"Subject to origination" does sound more mysterious and impressive, but I personally prefer clarity and simplicity. Translating Pali into English is a task that is still under development, so it is helpful to have different translations to compare. Having been very familiar with Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations from studying them for many years, I found that re-reading the suttas with quite different translation choices helped me to re-think my understanding.


Mike

[SarathW]

That statement signifies the attainment of Sotapanna Phala. Hence, the statement is related to the understanding of "Cattari Ariyasaccani". All four Noble Truths are within the scope of that statement.

The question is how do you link the statement to the Sotapanna the way we understand it.
- Association good friends
- Listen to Dhamma
- Yonisomanasikara
- Follow the path etc

or
-Elimination of Sakkaya Ditthi etc.

[mikenz66]

Here is something I wrote about this sentence, based on Bhikkhu Nananada's writings on meditation:
viewtopic.php?p=478821#p478821

A key point that Ven Nananda makes is that craving gets in the way of seeing that everything that has beginning has an ending.

Why do we say that craving is concealing the fact of
cessation? Because craving is on the side of ‘arising.’ As soon as
a cessation occurs, craving as the regenerator prompts a re-
arising. As the phrase ‘taṇhā ponobhavikā nandirāgasahagatā
tatratatrābhinandinī’ [*] implies, craving as the regenerator is
always out to make for re-becoming. It is accompanied by delight
and lust, and it delights now-here-now-there. Because of its very
nature of taking delight now here-now there, craving says, ‘Don't
worry about the breath that is gone, catch hold of another breath.
Take hold of another breath’. It tempts and prompts. But when
dispassion sets in, this tendency to tempt and prompt becomes
less and less. It is reduced, with the result, that the cessation
aspect becomes more prominent – and with it, the passing away,
the breaking-up, the destruction. That way, one comes to see the
cessation of mind-objects also and that is nirodhānupassanā – the
contemplation of cessation.

[*] In context from: https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi#sc5
“Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination.

Mike

[Ontheway]

That statement signifies the attainment of Sotapanna Phala. Hence, the statement is related to the understanding of "Cattari Ariyasaccani". All four Noble Truths are within the scope of that statement.

The question is how do you link the statement to the Sotapanna the way we understand it.
- Association good friends
- Listen to Dhamma
- Yonisomanasikara
- Follow the path etc

or
-Elimination of Sakkaya Ditthi etc.

The steps you mentioned above is the way to achieve Sotapanna sainthood.

Those steps encouraging the learning (Pariyatti) and practicing (Patipatti) of Dhamma. After all these steps, once successful eliminating the three fetters altogether, one achieved Sotapanna sainthood (Pativeda), complete with four characteristics:

1) unwavering confidence in Buddha;
2) unwavering confidence in Dhamma;
3) unwavering confidence in Sangha;
4) possessing the virtues dear to the noble ones—unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration (in the case of laypeople, "five precepts" but some said "the abandonment of 10 unwholesome deeds")

or
-Elimination of Sakkaya Ditthi etc.

Sotapanna candidates will need to see (not just academic study or text memorisation) The Four Noble Truths and Paticca-samuppada correctly before becoming Sotapanna. In this process, the three samyojanas headed by Sakkaya-Ditthi is automatically removed.

[Ontheway]

Hi Ontheway,

What is the detailed meaning of “yaṃ kiñci samuda­ya­ dhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirōdha dhammam“?

Dhamma­cakkap­pa­vat­ta­na Sutta (SN 56.11)



https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/suj ... ript=latin

I don't think the translation by Bhante Sujato is correct...

This would be more accurate, as it brings out the essence of Paticca-samuppada, IMO.

Whatever is subject to origination all that is subject to cessation.

I actually think that the meaning is identical. If something is "subject to origination" it "has a beginning".

"Subject to origination" does sound more mysterious and impressive, but I personally prefer clarity and simplicity. Translating Pali into English is a task that is still under development, so it is helpful to have different translations to compare. Having been very familiar with Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations from studying them for many years, I found that re-reading the suttas with quite different translation choices helped me to re-think my understanding.


Mike

I see. Understandable.

Maybe I'm too OCD. I thought Bhante Sujato's translation will lead to the understanding of "simple arising and ceasing of phenomena". While the other translation brings out the principle of conditionality, which is the heart of Paticca-samuppada.

Maybe I was being OCD here.

[Joe.c]

That statement signifies the attainment of Sotapanna Phala. Hence, the statement is related to the understanding of "Cattari Ariyasaccani". All four Noble Truths are within the scope of that statement.

This is not accurate. It is only Sotapanna Magga. You can check MN 56 as well. When Buddha taught Upali 4NT, same statement mentioned. This statement only for Magga.

For phala (fruit), one need to review the knowledge. Knowledge take time, it is not 1 moment (as Abhidhamma described). It may take until end of life if one doesn’t put effort (lazy). Buddha describe it on SN 55.40 (lazy vs diligent).

Buddha mention this on MN 48 Kosambiya Sutta for phala.

When a noble disciple has these seven factors, they have properly investigated their own nature with respect to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. (sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya).

[Ontheway]

That statement signifies the attainment of Sotapanna Phala. Hence, the statement is related to the understanding of "Cattari Ariyasaccani". All four Noble Truths are within the scope of that statement.

This is not accurate. It is only Sotapanna Magga. You can check MN 56 as well. When Buddha taught Upali 4NT, same statement mentioned. This statement only for Magga.

For phala (fruit), one need to review the knowledge. Knowledge take time, it is not 1 moment (as Abhidhamma described). It may take until end of life if one doesn’t put effort (lazy). Buddha describe it on SN 55.40 (lazy vs diligent).

Buddha mention this on MN 48 Kosambiya Sutta for phala.

When a noble disciple has these seven factors, they have properly investigated their own nature with respect to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. (sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya).

So, you are saying someone need to have this understanding first "Whatever is subject to origination all that is subject to cessation." (or "Everything that has a beginning has an end.") before that person can proceed to practice further (or "review the knowledge" in your sentence)?

The Vision of Dhamma is not the Phala?

So Venerable Anna Kondanna in Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, was only a Sotapanna Magga attainer? Not a Sotapanna Phala attainer?

[cappuccino]

What is the detailed meaning of

“Everything that has a beginning has an end.”

means :

if you stop trying to enjoy this world then… you will not be reborn in it again

[Joe.c]

So, you are saying someone need to have this understanding first "Whatever is subject to origination all that is subject to cessation." (or "Everything that has a beginning has an end.") before that person can proceed to practice further (or "review the knowledge" in your sentence)?

The Vision of Dhamma is not the Phala?

That is my understanding. However, for wise person, it may take <1 day or even before end of the discourse if they have developed the path concurrently.

In DhammaCakkaPPavattana Sutta (SN 56.11) you will see the 3 perspectives and 12 respects. First they SEE the 4NT, then they need to KNOW, then they HAVE Known for all 4NT. Depending on knowledge & development, one can be any of the one Ariya.

Also, there is Cakkhu Udapadi, Nana Udapadi, Panna Udapadi, Vijja Udapadi, and Aloko Udapadi. First it is seeing, then knowledge, then understanding the knowledge, conscious/penetration of the understanding, and finally brightness/light/purity.

But by the end of the SN 56.11, probably Kondanna has reviewed the knowledge. Because Buddha mentioned it.

“aññāsi vata bho, koṇḍañño, aññāsi vata bho, koṇḍañño”ti.

For certain Phala, usually one declare the following:
Sotapanna Phala - SN 55.53 DhammaDinna Sutta

"Sir, these four factors of stream-entry that were taught by the Buddha are found in us, and we embody them."
...
“You’re fortunate, Dhammadinna, so very fortunate!
You have all declared the fruit of stream-entry.”

- Anagami Phala SN 41.9

‘The householder Citta is bound by no fetter that might return him to this world.’”

- Arahant Phala SN 22.59

Birth comes to end, the spiritual journey has been fulfilled, there is nothing to be done, no further state. It is fully known

Please note the translation is not perfect.

[Joe.c]

if you stop trying to enjoy this world then… you will not be reborn in it again

DO/DC is not about stopping the rebirth. It is how the Dukkha arises and how the Dukkha ceases. To know DO is to know how to cease the Dukkha.

Buddha Teaching is about Anatta. If there is no self, then how can one is reborn?