I've been studying the Digha Nikaya, and I've reached a snag that is really throwing me for a loop in DN 9, the Potthapada Sutta.
While discussing the three kinds of "acquired self," the Buddha tells Potthapada that he teaches the Dhamma which leads to the abandonment of these 3 kinds of acquired self. By following this Dhamma, the defiled states of mind decrease, and purified states of mind increase. One enters and abides in the perfection of wisdom, which has been realized through one's own insight.
This is where I get confused - he mentions that, at this point, Potthapada may believe that abiding in this state is still "dukkha." In Pali: dukkho ca kho vihāro’ti
The Buddha insists that abiding in this state (or "living in this way") is actually joyful, happy, tranquil. "Dwelling in this way is blissful," or "such a life is happy." In Pali: sukho ca vihāro
How is this so? Given that, by the time a practitioner is abiding in the 4th rupa jhana, even the jhanic feelings of bliss have been left behind, how is it that this state described by the Buddha - still characterized by feelings of joy, bliss, etc. - can be said to be "not dukkha"?
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Question wrt the Buddha telling Potthapada "...such a life is blissful."
Re: Question wrt the Buddha telling Potthapada "...such a life is blissful."
OP asked
Buddha does not refer to feelings, his words are
"The blissful state" of the Arahant, that is what is found in 4th Jhana, even for short periods.
One cannot enter jhana without leaving behind hindrances. In that entry the aggregates are left behind.
As long as you keep company with aggregates hindrances have an opportunity at entry.
Just responding. I don't intend to engage in a long dispute here.
Good luck
You tend to alter the language. you come up with feelings of blissby the time a practitioner is abiding in the 4th rupa jhana, even the jhanic feelings of bliss have been left behind, how is it that this state described by the Buddha - still characterized by feelings of joy, bliss, etc. - can be said to be "not dukkha"?
Buddha does not refer to feelings, his words are
indicates serenity, tranquility, of a supra mundane nature.The Buddha insists that abiding in this state (or "living in this way") is actually joyful, happy, tranquil. "Dwelling in this way is blissful," or "such a life is happy." In Pali: sukho ca vihāro
"The blissful state" of the Arahant, that is what is found in 4th Jhana, even for short periods.
One cannot enter jhana without leaving behind hindrances. In that entry the aggregates are left behind.
As long as you keep company with aggregates hindrances have an opportunity at entry.
Just responding. I don't intend to engage in a long dispute here.
Good luck
Re: Question wrt the Buddha telling Potthapada "...such a life is blissful."
I'm certainly not looking for a debate either! I was confident I was overlooking something or failing to understand something with this passage, and was looking for input from anyone who understands. I really appreciate your response.
Pulsar wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:17 pm OP askedYou tend to alter the language. you come up with feelings of blissby the time a practitioner is abiding in the 4th rupa jhana, even the jhanic feelings of bliss have been left behind, how is it that this state described by the Buddha - still characterized by feelings of joy, bliss, etc. - can be said to be "not dukkha"?
Buddha does not refer to feelings, his words areindicates serenity, tranquility, of a supra mundane nature.The Buddha insists that abiding in this state (or "living in this way") is actually joyful, happy, tranquil. "Dwelling in this way is blissful," or "such a life is happy." In Pali: sukho ca vihāro
"The blissful state" of the Arahant, that is what is found in 4th Jhana, even for short periods.
One cannot enter jhana without leaving behind hindrances. In that entry the aggregates are left behind.
As long as you keep company with aggregates hindrances have an opportunity at entry.
Just responding. I don't intend to engage in a long dispute here.
Good luck
Re: Question wrt the Buddha telling Potthapada "...such a life is blissful."
Poṭṭhapāda may have difficulty imagining a happiness that doesn’t involve any of the three kinds of appropriation of a self. The Buddha may be assuring him that by giving these up (abandoning corrupting qualites and developing cleansing qualities) he won’t have just the cold comfort of knowing he’s pure and wise, but he will actually be happy. As I see it this is another place where the Buddha is making the point that awakening is something really good.