Kamma and intention

[EmptyShadow]

Hi, in one talk by Ajahn Anan he relates a story from the suttas that seem to contradict our common understanding that kamma is dependant on our intention.

The example of this is set in one of the suttas, is the story of a monk sewing a robe, then he accidentally kills an insect with the needle. He didn’t have that intention there to kill or harm an insect. And then in a future life he was reborn as a monk again and the insect was reborn as a hunter. The monk went to sit in the bushes and the hunter threw away his spear to hide it. The hunter accidentally killed the monk with that spear, which was the result of his past accidental killing of the insect.

https://watmarpjan.org/en/mr-walker-and-mr-wheeler/

Anyone knows from which sutta is this story and how do you understand it? Does it mean that action alone, with no intention whatsoever, can also create kamma?

[SarathW]

Sorry, I can't recall that is in Sutta.
It is important to note there are five Niyama Dhamma and the Kamma is only one of them.
For example, if you accidentally put a needle on someone he will react aggressively towards you whether you intended it or not.
So you have to avoid being clumsy.

[stantan]

Hi, these are my understanding,

intention is the Highest factor in kamma as the Buddha taught intention is kamma.

However intention is not everything,
If an action causes harm, likely there is some kamma, but intention is still main factor on the resulting kamma.
much like human law,
involuntary manslaughter and premeditated murder, both take life but the sentencing is different.
Kamma is much more sophisticated than human law.
Also if the accidental killing victim is a parent or an arahant, it will also be different.

As in a earlier reply, there are other niyamas working in line.

Kamma is complex and we cannot extrapolate but the fundamentals are good begets good, bad begets bad factoring intention.

[Ceisiwr]

Hi, in one talk by Ajahn Anan he relates a story from the suttas that seem to contradict our common understanding that kamma is dependant on our intention.

The example of this is set in one of the suttas, is the story of a monk sewing a robe, then he accidentally kills an insect with the needle. He didn’t have that intention there to kill or harm an insect. And then in a future life he was reborn as a monk again and the insect was reborn as a hunter. The monk went to sit in the bushes and the hunter threw away his spear to hide it. The hunter accidentally killed the monk with that spear, which was the result of his past accidental killing of the insect.

https://watmarpjan.org/en/mr-walker-and-mr-wheeler/

Anyone knows from which sutta is this story and how do you understand it? Does it mean that action alone, with no intention whatsoever, can also create kamma?

It sounds like a Jataka tale.

Does it mean that action alone, with no intention whatsoever, can also create kamma?

That is the Jain view, and possibly was the Ājīvika view too.

[justindesilva]

Hi, these are my understanding,

intention is the Highest factor in kamma as the Buddha taught intention is kamma.

However intention is not everything,
If an action causes harm, likely there is some kamma, but intention is still main factor on the resulting kamma.
much like human law,
involuntary manslaughter and premeditated murder, both take life but the sentencing is different.
Kamma is much more sophisticated than human law.
Also if the accidental killing victim is a parent or an arahant, it will also be different.

As in a earlier reply, there are other niyamas working in line.

Kamma is complex and we cannot extrapolate but the fundamentals are good begets good, bad begets bad factoring intention.

Here the implication is that the one who stitched was with ayoniso manasikara. Had he been with yoniso manasikara , an essential arya (noble) quality , the accident of killing with the needle would not have happened. So for kamma vipaka the cause of manasikara would be generative too.

[Ontheway]

Stantan wrote:

Kamma is complex and we cannot extrapolate but the fundamentals are good begets good, bad begets bad factoring intention.

[justindesilva]

Stantan wrote:

Kamma is complex and we cannot extrapolate but the fundamentals are good begets good, bad begets bad factoring intention.

Yet maha kamma vibanga sutta . Chula kamma vibanga sutta, bhava sutta , lona phala sutta explain many aspects of kamma for us to understand it. Vasetta sutta too explains another side of kamma.

[Ontheway]

Stantan wrote:

Kamma is complex and we cannot extrapolate but the fundamentals are good begets good, bad begets bad factoring intention.

Yet maha kamma vibanga sutta . Chula kamma vibanga sutta, bhava sutta , lona phala sutta explain many aspects of kamma for us to understand it. Vasetta sutta too explains another side of kamma.

It provides only a framework for us to know the main ideas on how Kamma-vipaka operates. But to see all details directly in action, only a Sammasambuddha is capable to do so.

[PeterC86]

Stantan wrote:

Yet maha kamma vibanga sutta . Chula kamma vibanga sutta, bhava sutta , lona phala sutta explain many aspects of kamma for us to understand it. Vasetta sutta too explains another side of kamma.

It provides only a framework for us to know the main ideas on how Kamma-vipaka operates. But to see all details directly in action, only a Sammasambuddha is capable to do so.

Kamma is anattā,
intention is anattā,
good is anattā,
bad is anattā,
bananas are anattā,
jellyfishes are anattā,
plates are anattā,
cups are anattā,
etc., etc.,

therefore,

cups cannot be found,
plates cannot be found,
jellyfishes cannot be found,
bananas cannot be found,
bad cannot be found,
good cannot be found,
intention cannot be found,
kamma cannot be found.

If the above is not known in the world, then the Dhamma is lost.

[Ontheway]

Words of little value and faulty logic.

[Suddh]

Yet maha kamma vibanga sutta . Chula kamma vibanga sutta, bhava sutta , lona phala sutta explain many aspects of kamma for us to understand it. Vasetta sutta too explains another side of kamma.

It provides only a framework for us to know the main ideas on how Kamma-vipaka operates. But to see all details directly in action, only a Sammasambuddha is capable to do so.

Kamma is anattā,
intention is anattā,
good is anattā,
bad is anattā,
bananas are anattā,
jellyfishes are anattā,
plates are anattā,
cups are anattā,
etc., etc.,

therefore,

cups cannot be found,
plates cannot be found,
jellyfishes cannot be found,
bananas cannot be found,
bad cannot be found,
good cannot be found,
intention cannot be found,
kamma cannot be found.

If the above is not known in the world, then the Dhamma is lost.

This is a really great illustration of why the Buddha didn't teach that there is no self. And of how the crazy mahāyāna emptiness teachings evolved via the Big Lie that he did teach it.

I wonder what breakfast is like in a house where cups, plates and bananas can't be found. Can you at least find the milk and cereal?

Really though, the Buddha taught that there is good, there is bad, that intention can be found, kamma can be found, and that they can also be transcended.

And cups can be found. Check the dishwasher.

[pops]

It provides only a framework for us to know the main ideas on how Kamma-vipaka operates. But to see all details directly in action, only a Sammasambuddha is capable to do so.

Kamma is anattā,
intention is anattā,
good is anattā,
bad is anattā,
bananas are anattā,
jellyfishes are anattā,
plates are anattā,
cups are anattā,
etc., etc.,

therefore,

cups cannot be found,
plates cannot be found,
jellyfishes cannot be found,
bananas cannot be found,
bad cannot be found,
good cannot be found,
intention cannot be found,
kamma cannot be found.

If the above is not known in the world, then the Dhamma is lost.

This is a really great illustration of why the Buddha didn't teach that there is no self. And of how the crazy mahāyāna emptiness teachings evolved via the Big Lie that he did teach it.

I wonder what breakfast is like in a house where cups, plates and bananas can't be found. Can you at least find the milk and cereal?

Really though, the Buddha taught that there is good, there is bad, that intention can be found, kamma can be found, and that they can also be transcended.

and that there are father and mother spontaneously born beings and also wise men and women who know the Dhamma and also know how to make it better visible for others.

It seems to me like one of those is around here …

[mjaviem]

...
It seems to me like one of those is around here …

Who? I would love to meet one or at least read their posts. It would be of great benefit, I think.

[pops]

...
It seems to me like one of those is around here …

Who? I would love to meet one or at least read their posts. It would be of great benefit, I think.

I gladly referred to the forums member Suddh.

[mjaviem]

...
I gladly referred to the forums member Suddh.

Oh. Thanks, anyway.