Survival and Cannibalism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Alino wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:10 pm Killing someone to eat his body is bad kamma.
Eating an already dead body is technically OK, but socially not OK.

Imho

PS go vegan
This comment is so disconnected to reality I don’t even know where to begin.
What if you were to simply kill with full awareness and appreciate and be thankful for the meal provided.
Killing a pig one has grown close to and loves is difficult, killing a human who values his/her life is difficult.
To fully embrace the situation life presents and choose with wisdom removes the heavy negative kamma.
Honouring the kill and respecting the kill offers merit.
To simply say “go vegan” is a one eyed open approach. Come full circle, and be at ease with food harvesting, preparation, and consumption.
Ontheway
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by Ontheway »

No, Alino's comment is correct that killing begets bad kamma.

The Buddha taught this Dhammapada:
Dp-pics_page432_image129c.jpg

In the Suttas,

Duccaritavipākasutta
“Bhikkhus, the destruction of life, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one reborn as a human being the destruction of life at minimum conduces to a short life span.
The act of killing is never to be justified in the teachings of Lord Buddha. To practice Dhamma, one needs to abandon "killing".

Saccavibhanga Sutta
"And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from sexual misconduct: This is called right action.
As long as you don't abandon such evil view and keep mispresenting Buddha's Dhamma to justify your sadistic behaviour and distorted mindset, you will keep generating demerits and one day you will answer for it. As this was said by the Buddha:

Dp-pics_page432_image15.jpg
Better abandon the act of killing now.
Last edited by Ontheway on Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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seeker242
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by seeker242 »

StrivingforMonkhood wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:40 pm It's also always bothered me that people are born highly deformed mentally or physically, or both. Why does this happen? I just don't understand all these things.
"There is the case where a woman or man is one who harms beings with his/her fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is sickly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to sickliness: to be one who harms beings with one's fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives."

MN 135
Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta: The Shorter Analysis of Action
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seeker242
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by seeker242 »

thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:04 pm What if you were to simply kill with full awareness and appreciate and be thankful for the meal provided.
Killing a pig one has grown close to and loves is difficult, killing a human who values his/her life is difficult.
To fully embrace the situation life presents and choose with wisdom removes the heavy negative kamma.
"Choosing with wisdom" means not killing to begin with. This is what the Buddha taught. Choosing to kill is inherently unwise and it will produce bad karma regardless of what one thinks about it. There is no merit in taking life regardless of what one thinks about it.
thepea
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:42 pm No, Alino's comment is correct that killing begets bad kamma.

The Buddha taught this Dhammapada:
Dp-pics_page432_image129c.jpg


In the Suttas,

Duccaritavipākasutta
“Bhikkhus, the destruction of life, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one reborn as a human being the destruction of life at minimum conduces to a short life span.
The act of killing is never to be justified in the teachings of Lord Buddha. To practice Dhamma, one needs to abandon "killing".

Saccavibhanga Sutta
"And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from sexual misconduct: This is called right action.
As long as you don't abandon such evil view and keep mispresenting Buddha's Dhamma to justify your sadistic behaviour and distorted mindset, you will keep generating demerits and one day you will answer for it. As this was said by the Buddha:

And.... don’t preach to me about abandoning
Dp-pics_page432_image15.jpg

Better abandon the act of killing now.
I agree that to practice dhamma one must follow precepts meticulously. Proper sila calms mind, allows samadhi to strengthen which leads to observation of inner body where direct experiential wisdom can arise.
But say a layman/woman were to take a month per year to do this good work and then return to laylife and resume activities, of which killing or food preparation may beA part. This individual may be a sotapanna but might not be ready to abandon their wife and children to take up robes and practice 24/7 to end suffering. Have you ever done a 30 day retreat and tried to practice 24/7?
Living as a monk in these times is not practice 24/7, most monks utilize their monkey mind by communicating on video or chat forums or mess around with text and words. All to occupy the mind do they don’t go crazy. Are all these monks arahants? I think not. So why are they not practicing fully? Or are they.
We are all at play and in experience, all that matters is trespass, property and carrying a balanced mind.

And.... don’t preach to me about having an “evil” view. I speak about farming practices. Are you calling farmers evil?
Most farmers feed monastic communities. Where would you be without farmers?
Native Indians hunted Buffalo and respected the animals to the last drop of blood, are Indians evil?
thepea
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:57 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:04 pm What if you were to simply kill with full awareness and appreciate and be thankful for the meal provided.
Killing a pig one has grown close to and loves is difficult, killing a human who values his/her life is difficult.
To fully embrace the situation life presents and choose with wisdom removes the heavy negative kamma.
"Choosing with wisdom" means not killing to begin with. This is what the Buddha taught. Choosing to kill is inherently unwise and it will produce bad karma regardless of what one thinks about it. There is no merit in taking life regardless of what one thinks about it.
I don’t find this the case while fishing.
I catch the fish, respect the fish, kill the fish with gratitude and compassion. Fillet the fish, cook the fish and feed the fish to my wife and kids.
It’s very wholesome and offers connectivity to my food that purchasing from grocery store does not. I respect the river, and its quality and contents. I fail to see how this is bad kamma.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:38 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:57 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:04 pm What if you were to simply kill with full awareness and appreciate and be thankful for the meal provided.
Killing a pig one has grown close to and loves is difficult, killing a human who values his/her life is difficult.
To fully embrace the situation life presents and choose with wisdom removes the heavy negative kamma.
"Choosing with wisdom" means not killing to begin with. This is what the Buddha taught. Choosing to kill is inherently unwise and it will produce bad karma regardless of what one thinks about it. There is no merit in taking life regardless of what one thinks about it.
I don’t find this the case while fishing.
I catch the fish, respect the fish, kill the fish with gratitude and compassion. Fillet the fish, cook the fish and feed the fish to my wife and kids.
It’s very wholesome and offers connectivity to my food that purchasing from grocery store does not. I respect the river, and its quality and contents. I fail to see how this is bad kamma.
Yes, that's understandable. You fail to see how this is bad kamma. The Buddha said in MN 136 that what follows bad kamma such as killing could be heavenly or hellish, so it's understandable that we don't always see how something is good or bad kamma. Not seeing it doesn't, of course, mean that it's not bad kamma, though.
Ontheway
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by Ontheway »

Those hunters or fishermen were not necessarily evil but they were necessarily ignorant, and unwilling to relinquish unwholesome actions. And there is no need to ask:"If everyone abandoned killing, what about our food?" Such question is not tenable since there will be always ignorant people do it. But the real question is, now we understand that killing is unwholesome as taught by the Enlightened One, should we continue to do so? Should we follow the way of crowd or follow the way of Buddha?

- If you are not a Buddhist, then of course you are entitled to your opinion.

- But if you are into Buddha's teachings and intended to follow it, then you should make haste to abandon such pernicious mindset.

- But if you think you wanted to challenge Buddha's teachings here, trying to pollute the teachings by saying "killing living beings is wholesome in Buddhism"... Then your point is to be rejected firmly without hesitation.

Furthermore, it is your view here, thinking that act of killing is wholesome and respectable (even meritorious), and tried to justify it by using Buddhism, necessarily evil.

You should abandon that idea, stop killing for food if you intended to follow Lord Buddha's teachings. If you are omnivore, of course you can eat permissible meat (according to Jivaka Suttanta) or even replace protein intake with other food source. We are not living in ancient civilization anymore. Options are always available.


But, if you insist with that view and keep using Buddhism as a justification or support for that view, it will be bad kamma. And our Master, Gotama the Sammasambuddha said in Dhammapada:
IMG_20220118_002432.jpg
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
thepea
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:53 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:38 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:57 pm

"Choosing with wisdom" means not killing to begin with. This is what the Buddha taught. Choosing to kill is inherently unwise and it will produce bad karma regardless of what one thinks about it. There is no merit in taking life regardless of what one thinks about it.
I don’t find this the case while fishing.
I catch the fish, respect the fish, kill the fish with gratitude and compassion. Fillet the fish, cook the fish and feed the fish to my wife and kids.
It’s very wholesome and offers connectivity to my food that purchasing from grocery store does not. I respect the river, and its quality and contents. I fail to see how this is bad kamma.
Yes, that's understandable. You fail to see how this is bad kamma. The Buddha said in MN 136 that what follows bad kamma such as killing could be heavenly or hellish, so it's understandable that we don't always see how something is good or bad kamma. Not seeing it doesn't, of course, mean that it's not bad kamma, though.
I think it’s great kamma, wonderful day out in nature, casting my line, asking only fish that wish to feed me take the bait all others should avoid.
Catching a beauty, preparing it for supper, feeing my family good fresh food that is locally harvested.
A full belly sitting by an outdoor fire.
Good, good, good or it’s all dukkha so what’s the difference.
thepea
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:26 pm Those hunters or fishermen were not necessarily evil but they were necessarily ignorant, and unwilling to relinquish unwholesome actions. And there is no need to ask:"If everyone abandoned killing, what about our food?" Such question is not tenable since there will be always ignorant people do it. But the real question is, now we understand that killing is unwholesome as taught by the Enlightened One, should we continue to do so? Should we follow the way of crowd or follow the way of Buddha?

- If you are not a Buddhist, then of course you are entitled to your opinion.

- But if you are into Buddha's teachings and intended to follow it, then you should make haste to abandon such pernicious mindset.

- But if you think you wanted to challenge Buddha's teachings here, trying to pollute the teachings by saying "killing living beings is wholesome in Buddhism"... Then your point is to be rejected firmly without hesitation.

Furthermore, it is your view here, thinking that act of killing is wholesome and respectable (even meritorious), and tried to justify it by using Buddhism, necessarily evil.

You should abandon that idea, stop killing for food if you intended to follow Lord Buddha's teachings. If you are omnivore, of course you can eat permissible meat (according to Jivaka Suttanta) or even replace protein intake with other food source. We are not living in ancient civilization anymore. Options are always available.


But, if you insist with that view and keep using Buddhism as a justification or support for that view, it will be bad kamma. And our Master, Gotama the Sammasambuddha said in Dhammapada:

IMG_20220118_002432.jpg
You seem really into your Buddhism religion, I’m a dhammist(truthist) not a buddhist(and yes there is a difference) I practice buddhas teachings or the way of the enlightened one.
This teaching is within me, so I don’t have any use for belief or scriptures, if it feels good I repeat, if it feels bad I stop. And a whole bunch of must do’s in between.
I don’t see myself as evil. More like a farmer or indigenous man. To say the ignorant are to provide you with food does not seem like something siddarth Gotama would say. I think a Buddha would be grateful for the food offered to stave of the hunger pangs.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

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thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:59 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:53 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:38 pm
I don’t find this the case while fishing.
I catch the fish, respect the fish, kill the fish with gratitude and compassion. Fillet the fish, cook the fish and feed the fish to my wife and kids.
It’s very wholesome and offers connectivity to my food that purchasing from grocery store does not. I respect the river, and its quality and contents. I fail to see how this is bad kamma.
Yes, that's understandable. You fail to see how this is bad kamma. The Buddha said in MN 136 that what follows bad kamma such as killing could be heavenly or hellish, so it's understandable that we don't always see how something is good or bad kamma. Not seeing it doesn't, of course, mean that it's not bad kamma, though.
I think it’s great kamma, wonderful day out in nature, casting my line, asking only fish that wish to feed me take the bait all others should avoid.
Catching a beauty, preparing it for supper, feeing my family good fresh food that is locally harvested.
A full belly sitting by an outdoor fire.
Good, good, good or it’s all dukkha so what’s the difference.
You think it's great kamma, the Buddha says it's dark kamma.

Hmmm...what a dilemma! :thinking:
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seeker242
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by seeker242 »

thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:38 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:57 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:04 pm What if you were to simply kill with full awareness and appreciate and be thankful for the meal provided.
Killing a pig one has grown close to and loves is difficult, killing a human who values his/her life is difficult.
To fully embrace the situation life presents and choose with wisdom removes the heavy negative kamma.
"Choosing with wisdom" means not killing to begin with. This is what the Buddha taught. Choosing to kill is inherently unwise and it will produce bad karma regardless of what one thinks about it. There is no merit in taking life regardless of what one thinks about it.
I don’t find this the case while fishing.
I catch the fish, respect the fish, kill the fish with gratitude and compassion. Fillet the fish, cook the fish and feed the fish to my wife and kids.
It’s very wholesome and offers connectivity to my food that purchasing from grocery store does not. I respect the river, and its quality and contents. I fail to see how this is bad kamma.
There are several stories of the Buddha condemning people for fishing. One fisherman was named “Ariya” and the Buddha commented he was not worthy of such a name.

https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=270

It’s bad karma because it’s taking the life of a living being. It doesn’t matter why the life is being taken it’s still being taken and that, in and of itself, is the making of the bad karma.
thepea
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:18 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:59 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:53 pm

Yes, that's understandable. You fail to see how this is bad kamma. The Buddha said in MN 136 that what follows bad kamma such as killing could be heavenly or hellish, so it's understandable that we don't always see how something is good or bad kamma. Not seeing it doesn't, of course, mean that it's not bad kamma, though.
I think it’s great kamma, wonderful day out in nature, casting my line, asking only fish that wish to feed me take the bait all others should avoid.
Catching a beauty, preparing it for supper, feeing my family good fresh food that is locally harvested.
A full belly sitting by an outdoor fire.
Good, good, good or it’s all dukkha so what’s the difference.
You think it's great kamma, the Buddha says it's dark kamma.

Hmmm...what a dilemma! :thinking:
Wonderful days, spent outdoors, wonderful meal with family. Sounds pretty bright fella.
Maybe you misunderstood the Buddha?
thepea
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:33 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:38 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:57 pm

"Choosing with wisdom" means not killing to begin with. This is what the Buddha taught. Choosing to kill is inherently unwise and it will produce bad karma regardless of what one thinks about it. There is no merit in taking life regardless of what one thinks about it.
I don’t find this the case while fishing.
I catch the fish, respect the fish, kill the fish with gratitude and compassion. Fillet the fish, cook the fish and feed the fish to my wife and kids.
It’s very wholesome and offers connectivity to my food that purchasing from grocery store does not. I respect the river, and its quality and contents. I fail to see how this is bad kamma.
There are several stories of the Buddha condemning people for fishing. One fisherman was named “Ariya” and the Buddha commented he was not worthy of such a name.

https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=270

It’s bad karma because it’s taking the life of a living being. It doesn’t matter why the life is being taken it’s still being taken and that, in and of itself, is the making of the bad karma.
Maybe that particular fisherman was a bad dude or killed for sport or was simply not an ariya so Buddha commented accordingly. Did he lump all fisherman together on this way?
thepea
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:33 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:38 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:57 pm

"Choosing with wisdom" means not killing to begin with. This is what the Buddha taught. Choosing to kill is inherently unwise and it will produce bad karma regardless of what one thinks about it. There is no merit in taking life regardless of what one thinks about it.
I don’t find this the case while fishing.
I catch the fish, respect the fish, kill the fish with gratitude and compassion. Fillet the fish, cook the fish and feed the fish to my wife and kids.
It’s very wholesome and offers connectivity to my food that purchasing from grocery store does not. I respect the river, and its quality and contents. I fail to see how this is bad kamma.
There are several stories of the Buddha condemning people for fishing. One fisherman was named “Ariya” and the Buddha commented he was not worthy of such a name.

https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=270

It’s bad karma because it’s taking the life of a living being. It doesn’t matter why the life is being taken it’s still being taken and that, in and of itself, is the making of the bad karma.
Even at the end of buddhas discourse it says “the fisherman” attained sotapatti. So fishermen can be ariya. Otherwise he would have ceased to be a fisherman and the story would end mr ariya attained sotapatti.
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