Survival and Cannibalism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

seeker242 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:14 am
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:54 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:45 pm

Killing is bad karma for both monks and laypeople regardless. That is why fishing, even just for food, is against the 5 precepts for laypeople specifically. Not killing is not just a monks rule or a rule you just follow on retreat. But yes, you are free to choose whether or not you make bad karma. There can be no justification for intentional killing anywhere in Buddhism, regardless of the reason.
Umm, feeding the body is reason to kill.
Feeding ones family.
Protecting ones family.
All reasons to kill.
If one wants to make this bad kamma then they can. Or they can be in joy while fishing and harvesting meat.
I also heat some with wood. I kill living trees to harvest for firewood. I have to let it season before burning.
I also am carpenter and kill living trees for lumber.
Is this anti Buddhist too?
Again I’m not Buddhist, but what do buddhists build there homes from?
It's bad karma to kill to feed oneself, and to feed family. The reason does not matter. Finding joy in the killing does not change that either. One could argue it makes it even worse karma as there is no remorse in doing such a wrong act. Tree are not sentient beings. The prohibition on killing is regarding sentient beings, aka animals and other people.
My friend says the trees speak to her. I’ll let her know seeker242 things she’s wrong. I also thank the trees I take and I try not to waste them.
So farmers are bad?
I think you are making bad kamma by vilifying me or others for enjoying a day of fishing and feeding our families.
I on the other hand appreciate the hard work and efforts that go into food production and appreciate and respect this work.
I have neighbours that are very limited on finances and they raise rabbits and goats and eat them. Without this they simply could not make ends meet. They are lovely people. Should I vilify them?
90% of people where I live are farmers and many hunt and fish. Are they all villains?
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:23 am
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:38 pm

I'll be honest with you here. I don't think you are a sotāpanna. I think you have merely convinced yourself that you are one.
That’s the difference, I know with zero doubt. I also know the mind I carry and what capacity for action I have.
Your suttas are incorrect, mistranslated or being misunderstood. All the reason to practice and know your own mind and it’s capacity. Belief is of little use.
Thing is you are using concepts found in the suttas.
And....?
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seeker242
Posts: 1114
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Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by seeker242 »

thepea wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:26 am
seeker242 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:14 am
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:54 pm
Umm, feeding the body is reason to kill.
Feeding ones family.
Protecting ones family.
All reasons to kill.
If one wants to make this bad kamma then they can. Or they can be in joy while fishing and harvesting meat.
I also heat some with wood. I kill living trees to harvest for firewood. I have to let it season before burning.
I also am carpenter and kill living trees for lumber.
Is this anti Buddhist too?
Again I’m not Buddhist, but what do buddhists build there homes from?
It's bad karma to kill to feed oneself, and to feed family. The reason does not matter. Finding joy in the killing does not change that either. One could argue it makes it even worse karma as there is no remorse in doing such a wrong act. Tree are not sentient beings. The prohibition on killing is regarding sentient beings, aka animals and other people.
My friend says the trees speak to her. I’ll let her know seeker242 things she’s wrong. I also thank the trees I take and I try not to waste them.
So farmers are bad?
I think you are making bad kamma by vilifying me or others for enjoying a day of fishing and feeding our families.
I on the other hand appreciate the hard work and efforts that go into food production and appreciate and respect this work.
I have neighbours that are very limited on finances and they raise rabbits and goats and eat them. Without this they simply could not make ends meet. They are lovely people. Should I vilify them?
90% of people where I live are farmers and many hunt and fish. Are they all villains?
The Buddha is the one who declares it to be bad karma. Anyone who kills beings hunting or fishing is making bad karma yes. Raising rabbits and goats and killing them to eat is also bad karma. This is the teaching of the Buddha.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by Ontheway »

Like post above, the hunters, breeders, butchers may not be evil in character but it is necessarily ignorant, not knowing what is wholesome and what is unwholesome, for they don't know about the Dhamma proclaimed by the Enlightened One. Maybe they don't even know who is Gotama Buddha.

But for someone who knows what Buddhism is, should not even try to distort the teachings. And if this person insists to do so, saying "killing is good in Buddhism", then it is evil. For the person is mispresenting Lord Buddha, defaming Lord Buddha and all his disciples, distorting the Dhamma, causing doubts and confusion among layfollowers, deterring people who wanted to know the peaceful Dhamma that proclaimed by historical Gotama Buddha 2500++ years ago.
IMG_20220118_135457.jpg
Gotama the Bodhisatta stopping ceremonial sacrifice conducted by King Bimbisara.

Well, thepea. Our Teacher the Lord Buddha criticized the act of killing in many ways. He laid down "Panatipata veramani" as the first rule for layfollowers. He also laid down "the act of killing" as the first Parajika in monastic rules. And the noble 8 fold paths clearly taught us that killing is not "Samma Kammanta" and certainly not "Samma Ajiva".

Buddha preached about Ahimsa and Metta. Not killing living beings and not even violence. The Buddha asked his disciples to keep a Metta mind, even if they are abused by others, tortured, he told his direct disciples that:
"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.

"Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?"

"No, lord."

"Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.
For the case of Arahant Angulimala Thera, indeed before he was a monk, still deluded and wild, killed 999 people. Yet upon meeting the Buddha, he forsakes all evil practices, throw away rods and weapons, abandon everything and take refuge in Triple Gems and become a harmless Bhikkhu true to his real original name: "Ahimsaka" aka "harmless". Still, due to his bad Kammas, he suffered a lot of abuse and even greatly injured. Yet, he endured it with patience and even help pregnant woman with his utterance of Truth, who later to be known as Angulimala Paritta:
Yato’haṁ bhagini ariyāya jātiyā jāto,
Nābhijānāmi sañcicca pāṇaṁ jīvitā voropetā.
Tena saccena sotthi te hotu sotthi gabbhassa.

Sister, since being born in the Noble Birth (starting monkhood),
I am not aware that I have intentionally deprived a being of life.
By this truth may you be well,
and so may the child in your womb.
From this we know, only by abandoning this unwholesome action, we can proceed in the Dhamma practice.

So, that's it. The message of Lord Buddha is crystal clear: Stop killing, abandon it, refrain from it.

The act of killing, whatever the reason is, is deemed unskillful practice, unwholesome quality, bad in character, pertaining to bad kamma, detrimental to practice, as if it is not abandoned, it will lead to misfortune birth in future, reborn in deprived state, short life, miserable life, even Hell.

_________________________________

Maybe...

Maybe you should check out the other religion such as Islam... which is more inline with your idea of killing.
“Sayedatuna Aisha (RadiAllahuanhu) narrates that Rasul Allah said, “There is no dearer deed of Ibne Adam in the days of Qurbani than flowing the blood (doing Qurbani) and that animal will come with his horns, hairs, and hooves on the day of Qayamt. Thee blood of the Qurbani reaches the stage of acceptance before it reaches the floor.” (Tirmizi, Ibnu Majah)
“And recite to them the story of Adam's two sons, in truth, when they both offered a sacrifice [to Allah ], and it was accepted from one of them but was not accepted from the other. Said [the latter], "I will surely kill you." Said [the former], "Indeed, Allah only accepts from the righteous [who fear Him].” (Al-Ma'idah 5/27)
Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said, “Whoever slaughtered the sacrifice before the prayer, he just slaughtered it for himself, and whoever slaughtered it after the prayer, he slaughtered it at the right time and followed the tradition of the Muslims.” (Bukhari, 68/454)

“And for all religion We have appointed a rite [of sacrifice] that they may mention the name of Allah over what He has provided for them of [sacrificial] animals. For your god is one God, so to Him submit. And, [O Muhammad], give good tidings to the humble [before their Lord].” (Al-Haj 22/34)
Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said on the day of Nahr, “Whoever has slaughtered his sacrifice before the prayer, should repeat it (slaughter another sacrifice).” (Bukhari, 68)
Once I saw an Islamic show on TV and it was mentioned that Qurbani is the mass slaughtering of animals and the meat will be distributed among the people who celebrate "Eid al-Adha" day. There is a saying from the AD says the blood of sacrificed animals will cleanse our sins and purify our soul in the name of Allah. So, their teaching is "the more you kill, the more pure you are".



So, thepea, maybe this is what you looking for?

Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
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Location: United States

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by TRobinson465 »

As far as i know cannibalism is not bad karma (for laypeople) in Buddhism anymore than eating any other kind of meat. If you kill a person, whether to eat them or maybe in self-defense, that is another story. Its just a matter of trade off. would you rather let someone kill you than accumulate bad kamma? or would you rather accumulate bad kamma and live another day? Same with killing someone to eat them in desperation i suppose. Although if they just died naturally and you had nothing to eat but them, i would just dig in and live another day.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:44 am Like post above, the hunters, breeders, butchers may not be evil in character but it is necessarily ignorant, not knowing what is wholesome and what is unwholesome, for they don't know about the Dhamma proclaimed by the Enlightened One. Maybe they don't even know who is Gotama Buddha.

But for someone who knows what Buddhism is, should not even try to distort the teachings. And if this person insists to do so, saying "killing is good in Buddhism", then it is evil. For the person is mispresenting Lord Buddha, defaming Lord Buddha and all his disciples, distorting the Dhamma, causing doubts and confusion among layfollowers, deterring people who wanted to know the peaceful Dhamma that proclaimed by historical Gotama Buddha 2500++ years ago.

IMG_20220118_135457.jpg Gotama the Bodhisatta stopping ceremonial sacrifice conducted by King Bimbisara.

Well, thepea. Our Teacher the Lord Buddha criticized the act of killing in many ways. He laid down "Panatipata veramani" as the first rule for layfollowers. He also laid down "the act of killing" as the first Parajika in monastic rules. And the noble 8 fold paths clearly taught us that killing is not "Samma Kammanta" and certainly not "Samma Ajiva".

Buddha preached about Ahimsa and Metta. Not killing living beings and not even violence. The Buddha asked his disciples to keep a Metta mind, even if they are abused by others, tortured, he told his direct disciples that:
"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.

"Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?"

"No, lord."

"Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.
For the case of Arahant Angulimala Thera, indeed before he was a monk, still deluded and wild, killed 999 people. Yet upon meeting the Buddha, he forsakes all evil practices, throw away rods and weapons, abandon everything and take refuge in Triple Gems and become a harmless Bhikkhu true to his real original name: "Ahimsaka" aka "harmless". Still, due to his bad Kammas, he suffered a lot of abuse and even greatly injured. Yet, he endured it with patience and even help pregnant woman with his utterance of Truth, who later to be known as Angulimala Paritta:
Yato’haṁ bhagini ariyāya jātiyā jāto,
Nābhijānāmi sañcicca pāṇaṁ jīvitā voropetā.
Tena saccena sotthi te hotu sotthi gabbhassa.

Sister, since being born in the Noble Birth (starting monkhood),
I am not aware that I have intentionally deprived a being of life.
By this truth may you be well,
and so may the child in your womb.
From this we know, only by abandoning this unwholesome action, we can proceed in the Dhamma practice.

So, that's it. The message of Lord Buddha is crystal clear: Stop killing, abandon it, refrain from it.

The act of killing, whatever the reason is, is deemed unskillful practice, unwholesome quality, bad in character, pertaining to bad kamma, detrimental to practice, as if it is not abandoned, it will lead to misfortune birth in future, reborn in deprived state, short life, miserable life, even Hell.

_________________________________

Maybe...

Maybe you should check out the other religion such as Islam... which is more inline with your idea of killing.
“Sayedatuna Aisha (RadiAllahuanhu) narrates that Rasul Allah said, “There is no dearer deed of Ibne Adam in the days of Qurbani than flowing the blood (doing Qurbani) and that animal will come with his horns, hairs, and hooves on the day of Qayamt. Thee blood of the Qurbani reaches the stage of acceptance before it reaches the floor.” (Tirmizi, Ibnu Majah)
“And recite to them the story of Adam's two sons, in truth, when they both offered a sacrifice [to Allah ], and it was accepted from one of them but was not accepted from the other. Said [the latter], "I will surely kill you." Said [the former], "Indeed, Allah only accepts from the righteous [who fear Him].” (Al-Ma'idah 5/27)
Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said, “Whoever slaughtered the sacrifice before the prayer, he just slaughtered it for himself, and whoever slaughtered it after the prayer, he slaughtered it at the right time and followed the tradition of the Muslims.” (Bukhari, 68/454)

“And for all religion We have appointed a rite [of sacrifice] that they may mention the name of Allah over what He has provided for them of [sacrificial] animals. For your god is one God, so to Him submit. And, [O Muhammad], give good tidings to the humble [before their Lord].” (Al-Haj 22/34)
Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said on the day of Nahr, “Whoever has slaughtered his sacrifice before the prayer, should repeat it (slaughter another sacrifice).” (Bukhari, 68)
Once I saw an Islamic show on TV and it was mentioned that Qurbani is the mass slaughtering of animals and the meat will be distributed among the people who celebrate "Eid al-Adha" day. There is a saying from the AD says the blood of sacrificed animals will cleanse our sins and purify our soul in the name of Allah. So, their teaching is "the more you kill, the more pure you are".



So, thepea, maybe this is what you looking for?

I have found salvation, I’m saved if you will. I live with the Buddha(or whatever you care to call the ultimate truth). This is who I am. You seem to want to vilify me for fishing/farming and feeding my children. I think it is you who is suffering the negative kamma. I am at peace with nature and harvesting from its bounty. If a time comes where I feel this not in alignment I will refrain. Like the native Indians hunting and gathering fir survival and honouring the bounty, this is how I look at this.
It might be wise for you to spend some time producing food and see exactly how much intentional killing goes into this. Even growing vegetables required killing of beetles, and other creatures that are just feeding for reproduction.
It’s the circle of life.
Now I agree that when one trains for the arising of insight one must renounce these practices of farming, hunting, fishing, killing, and follow the precepts. One must not even prepare food, one must take only what is offered and generate gratitude. But then when one is finished their “retreat” or time as a renuncient they can be of service to others again and be productive members of community. This may entail defending ones people from bandits or greedy elites and carving up their flesh for consumption if nothing else is available to eat in times of desperation.
thepea
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:30 am As far as i know cannibalism is not bad karma (for laypeople) in Buddhism anymore than eating any other kind of meat. If you kill a person, whether to eat them or maybe in self-defense, that is another story. Its just a matter of trade off. would you rather let someone kill you than accumulate bad kamma? or would you rather accumulate bad kamma and live another day? Same with killing someone to eat them in desperation i suppose. Although if they just died naturally and you had nothing to eat but them, i would just dig in and live another day.
Very reasonable.
Buddha did not teach that we are superior to others. Buddha does not want me to escape kamma by forcing others to provide food for me.
I think a lot of corporate globalism and control have given many here the illusion that food is cheap and abundant.
If the shipping of food globally is disrupted a lot here might find themselves with a change of heart towards cannibalism, hunting, fishing, farming, etc....
When the bellies of your children are empty or your own you will see how enlightened you are.
See if you let bandits rip your limbs off like a Buddha or Christ like figure. Easier to say than to do.
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Ceisiwr
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Location: Wales

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by Ceisiwr »

thepea wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:11 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:30 am As far as i know cannibalism is not bad karma (for laypeople) in Buddhism anymore than eating any other kind of meat. If you kill a person, whether to eat them or maybe in self-defense, that is another story. Its just a matter of trade off. would you rather let someone kill you than accumulate bad kamma? or would you rather accumulate bad kamma and live another day? Same with killing someone to eat them in desperation i suppose. Although if they just died naturally and you had nothing to eat but them, i would just dig in and live another day.
Very reasonable.
Buddha did not teach that we are superior to others. Buddha does not want me to escape kamma by forcing others to provide food for me.
I think a lot of corporate globalism and control have given many here the illusion that food is cheap and abundant.
If the shipping of food globally is disrupted a lot here might find themselves with a change of heart towards cannibalism, hunting, fishing, farming, etc....
When the bellies of your children are empty or your own you will see how enlightened you are.
See if you let bandits rip your limbs off like a Buddha or Christ like figure. Easier to say than to do.
An awakened person wouldn’t have familial attachments. Your family obviously means a lot to you, but said attachments are a fetter according to the Buddha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:59 am
thepea wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:11 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:30 am As far as i know cannibalism is not bad karma (for laypeople) in Buddhism anymore than eating any other kind of meat. If you kill a person, whether to eat them or maybe in self-defense, that is another story. Its just a matter of trade off. would you rather let someone kill you than accumulate bad kamma? or would you rather accumulate bad kamma and live another day? Same with killing someone to eat them in desperation i suppose. Although if they just died naturally and you had nothing to eat but them, i would just dig in and live another day.
Very reasonable.
Buddha did not teach that we are superior to others. Buddha does not want me to escape kamma by forcing others to provide food for me.
I think a lot of corporate globalism and control have given many here the illusion that food is cheap and abundant.
If the shipping of food globally is disrupted a lot here might find themselves with a change of heart towards cannibalism, hunting, fishing, farming, etc....
When the bellies of your children are empty or your own you will see how enlightened you are.
See if you let bandits rip your limbs off like a Buddha or Christ like figure. Easier to say than to do.
An awakened person wouldn’t have familial attachments. Your family obviously means a lot to you, but said attachments are a fetter according to the Buddha.
What is an “awakened person”?
Ontheway
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by Ontheway »

Say whatever you want to say, thepea. The path and fruition of those Enlightened Ones are unshakable in their stance.

If you want to follow Buddha's teachings, then you need to do what he said: abandon killing. Establish your family in Five Precepts, pure and pertaining to merits, virtues dear to Wise Ones:

- Abstain from killing living beings
- Abstain from taking what is not given
- Abstain from sexual misconduct
- Abstain from telling lies
- Abstain from intoxicants.

If you think Buddhism is not for you, fine, leave it and do not harass Gotama Buddha our Master by distorting his teaching to justify your POV.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by Bundokji »

thepea wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:17 am I possess the wisdom of the sotapanna. It’s not belief.
It is a Buddhist term, and have the Buddha's teachings as its reference. To use a Buddhist term to make a claim, then to refuse the criteria offered by the teachings is selective, self centered, and a mere assertion.
I’m not comprehending what you mean about claims and social context?
Claims here are presented as statements of truth, which is relevant to abilities, knowledge and notions of right and wrong. In a social context, beliefs are justified through reference to authority, an objective criteria of some sort. Your claims has to be falsifiable in order to be examined. If they are only referenced through first hand experience, then they are mere assertions or blind beliefs. To say they are not beliefs is another assertion, as you are incapable of demonstrating why they are not beliefs, let alone a false ones. What you are presenting here is circular reasoning: I am a sotappana and i am telling you that killing fish is OK. You have to believe me. I am a living example or embodiment of the teachings, while the texts are distortion of the original teachings, which i came to know by myself.

You see, i suspect that none of the discussants here do not know the uncertainties of relying on an ancient text, but they take it as an objective criteria to study and examine their understanding. The alternative you are presenting of "believe me, i am a sotappana" is not only based on the weaknesses of the original approach, but even worse. It leaves no common ground for sane discussion or exchange of views, beyond personal experience and assertions.

My wisdom has answered these questions I used to have.
Great :toast:

But beware that you are here by your own choice to interact with people who take the texts as common reference for interaction. You might be satisfied with the knowledge you have, but how relevant is that to others here? It is not that your personal experience that is worthless, but the over-reliance on it to make an argument.
You all go ahead and abstain from doing things, I’ll just practice as I can and when the desire to do things is gone then I will naturally stop doing them.
Did we need your permission to go ahead and abstain from doing things? How useful and enlightening is that!
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:14 am Say whatever you want to say, thepea. The path and fruition of those Enlightened Ones are unshakable in their stance.

If you want to follow Buddha's teachings, then you need to do what he said: abandon killing. Establish your family in Five Precepts, pure and pertaining to merits, virtues dear to Wise Ones:

- Abstain from killing living beings
- Abstain from taking what is not given
- Abstain from sexual misconduct
- Abstain from telling lies
- Abstain from intoxicants.

If you think Buddhism is not for you, fine, leave it and do not harass Gotama Buddha our Master by distorting his teaching to justify your POV.
You nailed it!
“The path and frution of those enlightened ones is unshakeable in their stance” and as an enlightened one I can concur this.
Now I have explained my comprehension of training and precept importance already.
Now you listen to me, your Buddha is dead long ago, what remains is within all of us and I realize this.
DO NOT accuse me of harassment for holding a different view than your own!
I will not tolerate this!
I am not a Buddhist and never have been. I practice the noble eight fold path or the dhamma. It is a simple practice to comprehend yet our past traumas get in the way. I do not claim to be completely free from past trauma but this mind/body is unbinding and nothing can prevent this from occurring. The dam is cracked and no force can stop this dam from breaking.
I’m fine with you holding your religious views so tightly, but I do not share them and feel they are ritualistic in nature and a hindrance to the path. I’m fine with you holding these views but I will always speak to pointing the ignorance and self ritious nature in holding them so tightly.
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:44 am
thepea wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:17 am I possess the wisdom of the sotapanna. It’s not belief.
It is a Buddhist term, and have the Buddha's teachings as its reference. To use a Buddhist term to make a claim, then to refuse the criteria offered by the teachings is selective, self centered, and a mere assertion.
I’m not comprehending what you mean about claims and social context?
Claims here are presented as statements of truth, which is relevant to abilities, knowledge and notions of right and wrong. In a social context, beliefs are justified through reference to authority, an objective criteria of some sort. Your claims has to be falsifiable in order to be examined. If they are only referenced through first hand experience, then they are mere assertions or blind beliefs. To say they are not beliefs is another assertion, as you are incapable of demonstrating why they are not beliefs, let alone a false ones. What you are presenting here is circular reasoning: I am a sotappana and i am telling you that killing fish is OK. You have to believe me. I am a living example or embodiment of the teachings, while the texts are distortion of the original teachings, which i came to know by myself.

You see, i suspect that none of the discussants here do not know the uncertainties of relying on an ancient text, but they take it as an objective criteria to study and examine their understanding. The alternative you are presenting of "believe me, i am a sotappana" is not only based on the weaknesses of the original approach, but even worse. It leaves no common ground for sane discussion or exchange of views, beyond personal experience and assertions.

My wisdom has answered these questions I used to have.
Great :toast:

But beware that you are here by your own choice to interact with people who take the texts as common reference for interaction. You might be satisfied with the knowledge you have, but how relevant is that to others here? It is not that your personal experience that is worthless, but the over-reliance on it to make an argument.
You all go ahead and abstain from doing things, I’ll just practice as I can and when the desire to do things is gone then I will naturally stop doing them.
Did we need your permission to go ahead and abstain from doing things? How useful and enlightening is that!
I’m not Buddhist, I practice the dhamma(truth) as taught by the enlightened ones.
Don’t hijack this and wrap it up as “Buddhism” I do not care for that term as it’s religious in nature and leads to segregation.
I’m inclusive, but no need to get into that here.
So your “Buddhist terms” are dhamma terms to me and you hijack them when you refer to them as Buddhist.
On other forums I use other language and those who are attached to their own religions get mad at me as you do.
We are all discussing the same “thing(ultimate truth)” but using differing words or definitions. I find it divisive and I’m pretty sure the language corruption in place does this on purpose to keep humanity from unifying.
We are off topic here so can we bring this back to survival and cannibalism(cane and able”ism”). The ism’s are so funny to me. Buddhists discussing biblical terms without even realizing it.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by Ontheway »

Vasala Sutta
2. "Whosoever in this world kills living beings, once born or twice born, in whom there is no sympathy for living beings — know him as an outcast.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Survival and Cannibalism

Post by thepea »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:15 pm Vasala Sutta
2. "Whosoever in this world kills living beings, once born or twice born, in whom there is no sympathy for living beings — know him as an outcast.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html
Correct, so have sympathy for the beings you kill for food.
Respect them, comprehend their nature,
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