On Tradition

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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On Tradition

Post by Ceisiwr »

This is continuing a discussion that started here: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=41931
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:34 am Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:49 pm The venerable makes a good point regarding the suttas containing no practical instructions for meditation.
Yes they do.

What they don't provide is "practical instructions" to achieve things the Buddha did not teach.

Metta,
Paul. :)
In many suttas, when it comes to meditation and Jhāna, the sutta says that a person who has virtue and sense restraint goes to meditate, sits cross-legged, establishes mindfulness, abandons the hindrances and enters into the Jhānas. That's about it. There are no further details given as to how the meditation actually progresses, details on how hindrances are abandoned and so on. Now anyone who has meditated, or has attended a retreat or regularly visits meditation sessions at their local monastery will know what meditators have tons of questions and issues when it comes to meditation and, in reply, the monk or nuns gives further explanations and elaborations in order to clarify and help said people with their meditation. There is no doubt in my mind that when the Buddha instructed the monks and nuns in meditation, what he taught them was substantially more detailed than what we find briefly stated in the suttas. They would be so because many of the monks and nuns would need instructing. Some had probably never even meditated before, just like today when people come to Buddhism. With this in mind then I don't think we can simply rely upon the suttas when it comes to how to meditate. Suttas are the bare bones of the matter. They have to be fleshed out, for most people. This is why we seek instructions from monks and nuns also, which is a practice that goes back to the earliest days. For the longest of times when lay people or novices went to visit monks and nuns they had no real knowledge of suttas and so on. They sought instruction from the monk or nun. The monk or nun would then recite a sutta to them regarding meditation, but this would then be expanded upon in line with the monk or nuns own experiences. This carried on a tradition where a master would instruct their pupils, going back all the way to the Buddha himself. Suttas IMO are the beginning of the instruction, not the middle and end of it too. This then is why tradition is important IMO. It is through wisdom and understanding passed down the ages that we truly come to understand the suttas, rather than relying upon the suttas alone.

Apart from meditation, the Venerable also gives a good example as to how suttas do not contain everything. When the Buddha awakened he first taught his former 5 companions the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. Later he taught them the Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, at the end of which they all became arahants. Now a simple reading would have it that by simply hearing those two discourses they all became Arahants and that was it, but elsewhere he said that whilst he instructed 2 of the ascetics the other 3 went from alms and vice versa meaning the instruction went on for days. The Venerable points out that we know absolutely nothing about the details of what the Buddha was teaching them during those days. All we know from the sutta is that it had to do with the middle way, 4NT and emptiness. That's all the sutta tells us, but we know the Buddha taught them in greater detail than what we find in the suttas themselves. Suttas then aren't supposed to contain everything there is to know about the Dhamma. The job of a sutta is to capture the essential meaning, the bare bones of the matter. The job then of the Sangha, and so tradition, is to give us the meatier details. Try living off bones and you will starve in the Dhamma. Live off bones with meat and you will flourish in the Dhamma.

The above two aren't the only examples either. There are others. In the Maluṅkyaputta sutta it is said that in order to awaken we must practice sense restraint. In the seen, only the seen etc. We are told this means being mindful and not grasping the pleasing sign in sense experience, but that's it. What this actually means practically speaking we aren't told. We do however find some further advice in the commentaries. The same with the formless attainment of Nothingness. How exactly that is achieved we aren't really told in the suttas. Anyone basing themselves solely on the suttas would be reduced to guesswork regarding it. The Kasiṇa are the same. The suttas do not tell us what the Kasiṇa actually are, nor how to practice them nor how they relate to the path as a whole. If someone were to go solely on the suttas, they wouldn't have a clue as to what Kasiṇa are or how they are relevant.

With all this then in mind, whilst suttas and their parallels are important so is tradition and the additional information it offers. I should add that by tradition I don't necessarily restrict myself to Theravāda here either.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Ceisiwr »

If anyone hasn't seen the video, I would recommend starting from 20.00

“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: On Tradition

Post by SDC »

Hi C,

By the time I'm done with the three-week session on mindfulness currently going on in the study group, I think you may change your mind. Not that you'll be satisfied by what you find, but there is a lot happening in some of these accounts. I'm actually blown away by some of what I'm finding. Stuff I've read before, but as I put it all together it's fascinating.

What I think gets lost on many people as they read is just how much repetition and endurance is required for these things to take hold a be effective. And that reminder is found in numerous suttas, though rarely discussed. Too many people are looking for immediate results and that just doesn't seem likely for most. Most people seem to be thrill-seeking if you ask me. And I do not mean you.

The dry log simile is helpful. Things need to be brought together and kept together and it takes time before that can produce. That has been my experience.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
santa100
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Re: On Tradition

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote:In many suttas, when it comes to meditation and Jhāna, the sutta says that a person who has virtue and sense restraint goes to meditate, sits cross-legged, establishes mindfulness, abandons the hindrances and enters into the Jhānas. That's about it.
The Suttas being set up that way is actually a feature, not a bug. In computing lingo, it's called "program to interfaces, not implementations". Basically that means instead of laying out some concrete implementation details up front, the Suttas provide only a set of specifications. And from that open spec. the engineer (yes, that'd be us practitioners) will need to implement in whatever way that works best for ourselves. For example, using the quotes above:
MN 118 wrote:“Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out.
Some would ask the obvious question: why didn't the Buddha simply spell out what exactly "established mindfulness in front of him" meant? Well, because different "engineers" will "implement" differently, in whatever way that works best for himself. Some establishes it at the nostril gates, some at the upper lip, some at the chest, etc... Saying up front specifically that one should focus on his nostril gates would help those guys with long noses a lot, but for the short-nosed ones, not so much..
Jack19990101
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Jack19990101 »

Being around Buddha, is an important factor.
I heard, even an arahant, the peace is permeating his surroundings and other beings.
That is why beings of all sorts want to be close to a pure mind.

Being ascetics, their mind is pretty empty. I am not sure they have much of hindrances at all after long time disengaging from crowds, jobs, families and finances.
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Re: On Tradition

Post by mikenz66 »

santa100 wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:41 pm The Suttas being set up that way is actually a feature, not a bug. In computing lingo, it's called "program to interfaces, not implementations". Basically that means instead of laying out some concrete implementation details up front, the Suttas provide only a set of specifications. And from that open spec. the engineer (yes, that'd be us practitioners) will need to implement in whatever way that works best for ourselves.
I think this is an excellent point (which I've heard some teachers point out).

Obviously, there was much more detailed discussion that the suttas give. The suttas themselves say so:
As for the person who has serenity but not discernment: they should approach someone who has discernment and ask: ‘Reverend, how should conditions be seen? How should they be comprehended? How should they be discerned?’ That person would answer from their own experience: ‘This is how conditions should be seen, comprehended, and discerned.’ After some time they have both serenity and discernment.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.94/
But if the suttas had a lot of really specific instructions then the variety of ways that different teachers taught, or students learned, would be restricted, and people would be forever saying "the suttas don't teach exactly that - why are you doing that?"

Since there is not a lot of detail, such objections have little weight. Which is probably a good thing.

:heart:
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Re: On Tradition

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:28 pm Some had probably never even meditated before, just like today when people come to Buddhism. With this in mind then I don't think we can simply rely upon the suttas when it comes to how to meditate. Suttas are the bare bones of the matter. They have to be fleshed out, for most people. This is why we seek instructions from monks and nuns also, which is a practice that goes back to the earliest days. For the longest of times when lay people or novices went to visit monks and nuns they had no real knowledge of suttas and so on. They sought instruction from the monk or nun. The monk or nun would then recite a sutta to them regarding meditation, but this would then be expanded upon in line with the monk or nuns own experiences.
Too often there is this "know your place" message coming from all corners of the Buddhist community as if a newcomer couldn't possibly have the means to begin identifying the direction of suffering's origin in their own experience. People are haphazardly told to go find a teacher and it is implied they must find a place in the hierarchy. It is almost systematic how people are ushered to work their way up into the ranks of the community, putting more and more distance between where they currently are developmentally and the point where they can actually start to practice. Once all this filler is in place, anything they read must be filtered through it. This leaves people mired.

I've always been drawn to teachers and writers that emphasized applying the suttas to one's own suffering. (And this is long before I encountered the monks who I currently follow.) There is so much to unlearn from the ordinary world view, so any teacher who can make the suttas deeply personal, already puts the listener in a good position for learning. People should not feel guilty if they think a sutta is describing their pain, their suffering, their confusion, their anger, their kindness, etc., and all too often people are told they are going too far when they start to understand that relationship.

I hope I'm making myself clear. A teacher is essential to guide a person through unlearning so they can be fully exposed to what the suttas are offering, but this should not be confused with needing a teacher to get at the secret meanings or secret methods. No. The unknown - which isn't a secret, it just isn't immediately evident - is found in shedding the ordinary world views deliberately. The exposure is the ground that an ordinary person doesn't understand. Even if they've been there on account of circumstances, they are usually trying to get away from it. Trying to fill the space back up with comfort. We as Buddhists are trying to prepare that ground for wisdom. We start with admiring the goal (the teacher, the doctrine, the monastic community). Having faith. Then precepts, which set us apart from most people. Then guarding the sense, which sets us apart even further. Then restraint. A teacher can be there to encourage a person not to feel pressure to turn back and encourage a person to develop these things even though they are going to expose them and leave them wide open to truth that may initially be very painful.

I think the suttas hammer this in very hard, but I think people have trouble taking it straight to center of their experience. And again, the community doesn't really support the individual's gain of the goal. It is painted as selfish and out of reach. We do that to each other. For whatever reason, I'll never be able to tell. Perhaps it makes it easier to cope with how friggin' hard it is to make strides.

A great quote I was reminded of this week, "“It is, friend, when these four establishments of mindfulness are not developed and cultivated that the true Dhamma declines. And it is when these four establishments of mindfulness are developed and cultivated that the true Dhamma does not decline.” - SN 47.43
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On Tradition

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SDC wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:44 pm
Too often there is this "know your place" message coming from all corners of the Buddhist community as if a newcomer couldn't possibly have the means to begin identifying the direction of suffering's origin in their own experience.
Most people need to learn the Dhamma intellectually and develop their virtue and and meditation skills first. For the most part, people don't correctly identify the source of their suffering.
I've always been drawn to teachers and writers that emphasized applying the suttas to one's own suffering.
All of them do that.
People should not feel guilty if they think a sutta is describing their pain, their suffering, their confusion, their anger, their kindness, etc., and all too often people are told they are going too far when they start to understand that relationship.
Who says this?
A teacher is essential to guide a person through unlearning so they can be fully exposed to what the suttas are offering, but this should not be confused with needing a teacher to get at the secret meanings or secret methods. No. The unknown - which isn't a secret, it just isn't immediately evident - is found in shedding the ordinary world views deliberately.
I'm not arguing for esoteric knowledge. I'm arguing that we need to combine what the suttas say with what tradition has handed down, if it accords with the suttas, from master to pupil.
Then guarding the sense, which sets us apart even further. Then restraint.
How exactly to develop sense-restraint isn't really answered in the suttas. We are told not to grasp the signs or features of forms etc, but practically speaking there is no instruction at all. Thankfully we do have some further instructions to turn to
“He stops at what is merely seen’: according to the Sutta method, ‘The seen shall be merely seen’ (Ud 8). As soon as the colour basis has been apprehended by the consciousnesses of the cognitive series with eye-consciousness he stops; he does not fancy any aspect of beauty, etc., beyond that…. In one who fancies as beautiful, etc., the limbs of the opposite sex, defilements arisen with respect to them successively become particularized, which is why they are called ‘particulars.’ But these are simply modes of interpreting (sannivesákára) the kinds of materiality derived from the (four) primaries that are interpreted (sanniviþþha) in such and such wise; for apart from that there is in the ultimate sense no such thing as a hand and so on”
- Visuddhimagga sub-commentary

So we do not grasp at the signs and features by only focusing on the initial experience of the dhammas, in this case colour
He only apprehends what is really there. Like the Elder Mahá Tissa who dwelt at Cetiyapabbata.
55. It seems that as the elder was on his way from Cetiyapabbata to Anurádhapura for alms, a certain daughter-in-law of a clan, who had quarrelled with her husband and had set out early from Anurádhapura all dressed up and tricked out like a celestial nymph to go to her relatives’ home, saw him on the road, and being lowminded, she laughed a loud laugh. [Wondering] “What is that?” the elder looked up and finding in the bones of her teeth the perception of foulness (ugliness), he reached Arahantship.15 Hence it was said:

“He saw the bones that were her teeth,
And kept in mind his first perception;
And standing on that very spot
The elder became an Arahant.”
Visuddhimagga CHAPTER I - Description of Virtue
A great quote I was reminded of this week, "“It is, friend, when these four establishments of mindfulness are not developed and cultivated that the true Dhamma declines. And it is when these four establishments of mindfulness are developed and cultivated that the true Dhamma does not decline.” - SN 47.43
And do we develop those 4 Satipaṭṭhāna all at once, in tandem? Is it one at a time, two at a time, 3 at a time? It is cyclical, linear? These are questions that a sutta only approach cannot really address. Another example the Venerable gave in the dhamma talk. Based on the suttas what exactly is a Kasiṇa and how does it fit into the practice? What about the eight bases of overcoming, which again have no real explanation in the suttas?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:41 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:In many suttas, when it comes to meditation and Jhāna, the sutta says that a person who has virtue and sense restraint goes to meditate, sits cross-legged, establishes mindfulness, abandons the hindrances and enters into the Jhānas. That's about it.
The Suttas being set up that way is actually a feature, not a bug. In computing lingo, it's called "program to interfaces, not implementations". Basically that means instead of laying out some concrete implementation details up front, the Suttas provide only a set of specifications. And from that open spec. the engineer (yes, that'd be us practitioners) will need to implement in whatever way that works best for ourselves. For example, using the quotes above:
MN 118 wrote:“Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out.
Some would ask the obvious question: why didn't the Buddha simply spell out what exactly "established mindfulness in front of him" meant? Well, because different "engineers" will "implement" differently, in whatever way that works best for himself. Some establishes it at the nostril gates, some at the upper lip, some at the chest, etc... Saying up front specifically that one should focus on his nostril gates would help those guys with long noses a lot, but for the short-nosed ones, not so much..
That's an interesting way of looking at it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: On Tradition

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I've spoken previously on this topic in [url=viewtopic.php?p=560581]Vipassana Technique Revisited[/url], but in short, the fundamental problem that people make is to assume they must be "doing" meditation, failing to recognise that what sankharas they're experiencing are attributable to that doing.

Buddhist meditation, as taught in the Suttas is mostly about stopping doings, rather than creating more doing. Hence why there aren't lengthy directions on (to use an example above), sense restraint. We're told not to grasp at signs... so don't. The urge to add complexity and to explain, takes us away from the teaching. Worse, it makes people committed to the belief that the Buddha's teachings weren't comprehensive, and need to be supplemented by sectarian works.

Metta,
Paul. :)

(Apologies for the deformed link above. I can't for the life of me work out what's wrong with it)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Jack19990101
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Jack19990101 »

I personally think we generally don't comprehend how deep the let go is. We let go the easy ones but won't let loose if it hurts us, or scare us or worry us.
Technique is decorational but let go is the core.
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Re: On Tradition

Post by mikenz66 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:11 pm
SDC wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:44 pmI've always been drawn to teachers and writers that emphasized applying the suttas to one's own suffering.
All of them do that.
Well, perhaps not all, but it's hard for me to visualise what exactly these "other" teachers are doing instead (in the context of small-group interactions).

I do like this point, though:
SDC wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:44 pm A teacher is essential to guide a person through unlearning so they can be fully exposed to what the suttas are offering, but this should not be confused with needing a teacher to get at the secret meanings or secret methods. No. The unknown - which isn't a secret, it just isn't immediately evident - is found in shedding the ordinary world views deliberately.
:heart:
Mike
Last edited by mikenz66 on Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On Tradition

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:11 pm
SDC wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:44 pm
Too often there is this "know your place" message coming from all corners of the Buddhist community as if a newcomer couldn't possibly have the means to begin identifying the direction of suffering's origin in their own experience.
Most people need to learn the Dhamma intellectually and develop their virtue and and meditation skills first. For the most part, people don't correctly identify the source of their suffering.
I said "direction" of the origin - a natural sense of where it seems to be coming from. And sure, they do need to read and learn, but they also need to reflect on what they want from the Dhamma. Are they just going to use it the way they've used everything else so far? Are they using it to cope with the world? Or for something more? They need to develop the reasons why they want to practice and develop the faith that is going to help move them along. Then they'll have a reason to follow precepts.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:11 pm All of them do that.
No, they don't. Half of them are telling us to save the world first. Either you're being disingenuous or don't read what is coming from the broader community off of the forum.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:11 pm
People should not feel guilty if they think a sutta is describing their pain, their suffering, their confusion, their anger, their kindness, etc., and all too often people are told they are going too far when they start to understand that relationship.
Who says this?
Again, you must be shielding yourself from the broader message of the Buddhist community (smart move btw), which is who I was speaking about. I wasn't talking about this forum or even Theravadins.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:11 pm
Then guarding the sense, which sets us apart even further. Then restraint.
How exactly to develop sense-restraint isn't really answered in the suttas. We are told not to grasp the signs or features of forms etc, but practically speaking there is no instruction at all.
There is. There are signs that will take the thinking in the direction of wholesome, and signs that will take the thinking in the direction of unwholesome. If a person wants to restrain and not act when they are assailed with thoughts related to sensuality, they will look for signs of danger instead of gratification. Literally if we are getting hammered by that prospect for a lustful act, we have the option to either reflect on its danger and restrain or try to act in a manner that gets rid of it, which is usually engagement, which usually ends in gratification.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:11 pm
A great quote I was reminded of this week, "“It is, friend, when these four establishments of mindfulness are not developed and cultivated that the true Dhamma declines. And it is when these four establishments of mindfulness are developed and cultivated that the true Dhamma does not decline.” - SN 47.43
And do we develop those 4 Satipaṭṭhāna all at once, in tandem? Is it one at a time, two at a time, 3 at a time? It is cyclical, linear? These are questions that a sutta only approach cannot really address.
Check out the post I drop in a few hours. I think you'll be pleased. In your defense, these things are strewn across many suttas and to @santa100's point, it isn't going to be completely recounted each time. We have no idea the context of the situation in which every sutta is uttered and if another instruction followed or even if a certain thing preceded the day before. We just don't know.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:11 pm Based on the suttas what exactly is a Kasiṇa and how does it fit into the practice?
The kasinas correspond with the broadest aspect of perception, which is color, and also with elements. I'm not super familiar with kasinas, but looks to be notions of the complete extent of things. For earth, described as solidity, is about gathering the extent of solidity in the whole experience and bringing that in line with the earth element in the body. I think you'll find most of this MN 62. I don't have the time to find it now.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:11 pm What about the eight bases of overcoming, which again have no real explanation in the suttas?
I've never dug too deep into these. I do think it is relevant for those who are approaching from kasinas, but that is not the only way to approach things.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: On Tradition

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:50 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:11 pm
SDC wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:44 pmI've always been drawn to teachers and writers that emphasized applying the suttas to one's own suffering.
All of them do that.
Well, perhaps not all, but it's hard for me to visualise what exactly these "other" teachers are doing instead (in the context of small-group interactions).
Definitely not all. Many teachers have a very far-reaching position and do not send a message to practice mindfulness and gain freedom from suffering.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: On Tradition

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:50 am I do like this point, though:
SDC wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:44 pm A teacher is essential to guide a person through unlearning so they can be fully exposed to what the suttas are offering, but this should not be confused with needing a teacher to get at the secret meanings or secret methods. No. The unknown - which isn't a secret, it just isn't immediately evident - is found in shedding the ordinary world views deliberately.
:heart:
Mike
:anjali:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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