On Tradition

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: On Tradition

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote:It seems rather obvious to me that what is being said here
Well, let's see Ven. Thanissaro's take on it:
SN 35.95 wrote:“What do you think, Māluṅkyaputta? Do you have any desire or greed or fondness for sights known by the eye that you haven’t seen, you’ve never seen before, you don’t see, and you don’t think would be seen?”
And Ven. Thanissaro's note:
It is possible, of course, to have desire for a sight that one has not seen. Strictly speaking, however, the desire is not "there" at the unseen sight. Rather, it's there at the present idea of the unseen sight. This distinction is important for the purpose of the practice.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:44 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:It seems rather obvious to me that what is being said here
Well, let's see Ven. Thanissaro's take on it:
SN 35.95 wrote:“What do you think, Māluṅkyaputta? Do you have any desire or greed or fondness for sights known by the eye that you haven’t seen, you’ve never seen before, you don’t see, and you don’t think would be seen?”
And Ven. Thanissaro's note:
It is possible, of course, to have desire for a sight that one has not seen. Strictly speaking, however, the desire is not "there" at the unseen sight. Rather, it's there at the present idea of the unseen sight. This distinction is important for the purpose of the practice.
That would be covered by the mind base wouldn't it, since you are imaging such a thing. Bhate seems to say the same as me here.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Re: On Tradition

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:45 pm
santa100 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:44 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:It seems rather obvious to me that what is being said here
Well, let's see Ven. Thanissaro's take on it:
SN 35.95 wrote:“What do you think, Māluṅkyaputta? Do you have any desire or greed or fondness for sights known by the eye that you haven’t seen, you’ve never seen before, you don’t see, and you don’t think would be seen?”
And Ven. Thanissaro's note:
It is possible, of course, to have desire for a sight that one has not seen. Strictly speaking, however, the desire is not "there" at the unseen sight. Rather, it's there at the present idea of the unseen sight. This distinction is important for the purpose of the practice.
That would be covered by the mind base wouldn't it, since you are imaging such a thing.
Ven. T. sure knows the mind of the common man. Wild fantasies are difficult to work on. And who among us worldlings has been immuned from papanca!
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mjaviem
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Re: On Tradition

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:32 pm Why do you think it is wonderful?
Oh, you know. Because only the Buddha could have spoken in this way. As you already said, it seems when we see, hear, etc. we do it inevitably with some measure of desire, endearment, liking or with some measure of annoyance, discomfort, rejection. But those who are beyond see, hear, etc. only the thing, they don't add up the flames of passion, they see with clarity, not being there or anywhere, just as when not getting infatuated about things not seen or heard and never seen nor heard before or anytime. We build ourselves through passion. It seems not being bonded is not being at all.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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SDC
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Re: On Tradition

Post by SDC »

Wow, you are correct. Skimming that paragraph did not pay off lol. This isn’t good for my credibility :toilet:

Nevertheless, there are other descriptions of how to develop restraint that come at it more directly. Is the goal to understand restraint or to understand every sutta about restraint? I mean, I’m agreeing with you that this one lacks the clarity you were hoping for, but it isn’t as if there aren’t a hundred other options.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:21 pm Wow, you are correct. Skimming that paragraph did not pay off lol. This isn’t good for my credibility :toilet:

Nevertheless, there are other descriptions of how to develop restraint that come at it more directly. Is the goal to understand restraint or to understand every sutta about restraint? I mean, I’m agreeing with you that this one lacks the clarity you were hoping for, but it isn’t as if there aren’t a hundred other options.
In the context of this thread my only goal is to argue that there is a place for commentaries in our practice. That said texts do have something to offer. Advice on sense restraint was only one example. Instructions for meditation is another. I would also add in how to understand what DO meant, in it's original form.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Re: On Tradition

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:24 pm In the context of this thread my only goal is to argue that there is a place for commentaries in our practice. That said texts do have something to offer.
Hope I've presented some cases in point regarding that :anjali:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:27 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:24 pm In the context of this thread my only goal is to argue that there is a place for commentaries in our practice. That said texts do have something to offer.
Hope I've presented some cases in point regarding that :anjali:
Yes indeed.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: On Tradition

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:39 pm SDC wrote
My comments were in regards to context. I have no suspicions about the suttas being incomplete when it comes to right view guidance.
If one is guided by right view how can the context be misplaced?
The context would’ve been the reason right view was gained, so nothing to be misplaced in that case. My point is that suttas can be taken in any number of ways; from someone with no interest at all who thinks they’re reading ancient folklore, all the way to the monastic who has gone to the forest to make the most of what has been learned. It all depends on what the person wants to take from it, and what guidance they get from others. If the mindset is not appropriate, the instructions won’t have the intended outcome. And not every sutta can setup that mindset for the reader. Not by a long shot.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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nirodh27
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Re: On Tradition

Post by nirodh27 »

SDC wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:26 pm So there has to be a very big push to simplify things and start to dry out. So much more so than what the ancients had to contend with. If we can start to rein things in, we give ourselves a better platform to work with and I think that gets us much closer to the context that was there in ancient India. And to the OP’s point, that can fill in some of what isn’t immediately evident about the people and experiences being described in the suttas.
The exercise to put ourselves in a paesant in ancient india where success, stability and well-being were way way more difficult to obtain or to mantain really can help us to understand more the context of the teachings and the evidential reality of Dukkha (in regard to sensual pleasures) and the Buddha's response to it. This "sati" really opens up even more the meaning of the exercises and the instructions. This is a nice observation, I will bring it with me when I will read the suttas from now on.
Pulsar
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Pulsar »

OP in the opening statement writes
In many suttas, when it comes to meditation and Jhāna, the sutta says that a person who has virtue and sense restraint goes to meditate,
sits cross-legged, establishes mindfulness, abandons the hindrances and enters into the Jhānas
That's about it. There are no further details given as to how the meditation actually progresses, details on how hindrances are abandoned and so on.
Have you also read in the same sutta Pitaka, the following words?
  • This Dhamma is for the mindful,
    not for the confused;
    This Dhamma is for the composed,
    Not for the flustered:
  • This Dhamma is for the wise,
    not for the unwise;
    This Dhamma is for the precise and the one
    who delights in exactness,
    not for the diffused or
    the one who delights in diffusion
Have you read Anuruddha Samyutta?
What does that tell you?
What does the
  • establishment of mindfulness mean to you?
  • What is its goal?
  • Can you explain why you (on DW) often say Buddha's meditation and the meditation prevalent Before Buddha were the same?
  • What are the similarities?
Which brings us back to DO. Now you have proclaimed on DW if Buddha lived today that nama-rupa is not how he would begin the teaching of DO.
If Buddha lived today
  • how would you teach Buddha to explain the arising of consciousness?
How would you improve on this crucial teaching of the Buddha?
With love :candle:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:33 amNow you have proclaimed on DW if Buddha lived today that nama-rupa is not how he would begin the teaching of DO.
If Buddha lived today
  • how would you teach Buddha to explain the arising of consciousness?
How would you improve on this crucial teaching of the Buddha?
The Buddha obviously wouldn't use nāmarūpa to teach if he was teaching today because his students wouldn't know what it was. He would simply explain it in different terms that his audience did understand. You asking your interlocutor to adapt and improve on the Buddha's speech is tantamount to demanding your interlocutor be a Saṃbuddha. That is not an suitable mode of communication. It is one that expects far too much from your interlocutor.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu wrote
You asking your interlocutor to adapt and improve on the Buddha's speech is tantamount to demanding your interlocutor be a Saṃbuddha. That is not an suitable mode of communication. It is one that expects far too much from your interlocutor.
Can you show me a better way to ask the question, without asking too much from him?
Let me try to restate...
  • Can OP first explain to us how he understands Nama-Rupa.
  • Surely Buddha used in a given context.
What is that context? Is that the context in which Uapanishads used these words? Or was Buddha teaching in a non-upanishadic way here?
Hugs :candle:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Coëmgenu »

When the Buddha uses the term "nāmarūpa," he is using a pre-Buddhist term. Obviously he is not necessarily using it identically to how others used it. Even in the pre-Buddhist context, there is no reason to believe that there was a universal consensus on one singular definition of "nāmarūpa." The Vedas and Upaniṣads alike tend toward diversity, not homogeneity. It would be perfectly sensible for them to have many different senses of "nāmarūpa" that are navigated via context. There's nothing wrong with asking the OP to define his terms. I don't speak for him, however.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
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Re: On Tradition

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu wrote
There's nothing wrong with asking the OP to define his terms. I don't speak for him, however.
Thanks Dear C. Perhaps that is how I should have begun. Yes I would like OP to explain how he understands the 4 establishments of Mindfulness too.
hugs :candle:
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