SDC wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:22 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:04 pm
zan wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:55 pm
does not exist in any way whatsoever
No one says this.
Agreed.
zan wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:55 pm
The contemporary understanding of dependent origination…
Can you provide a source for your claim that this is a common understanding? I don’t think I’ve seen anyone put it together quite like that.
I don't understand this. It is claimed that I'm wrong by stating that what I'm saying is totally unfounded, like no one has ever said it before, and I'm the only one that believes such, while completely ignoring all the evidence I provide, and then evidence is asked for. It is mind boggling. 99% of the time I ignore it, because it necessarily is a circular process that is meaningless, and is a very common tactic, but I'll bite, just this once, and provide further explanation and evidence, which I'm sure will be ignored, or said is not relevant, or not true based on one or two words being slightly different, or some other method, like that Wikipedia is not a legitimate source, despite the articles quoted using well researched books as sources, and despite me providing properly sourced references, including references from works directly attributed to Nagarjuna, that demonstrate my point. All that said, please read below for sources for my claims:
I just posted the quote above where Nagarjuna specifically states that neither samsara, nor nirvana exist, and I reiterated this notion in paraphrase, which was inexplicably replied to with "no one says this." and "agreed", I'll post it again below, with further supporting texts (see note 1). Coupled with the fact that the Buddhist world is majority Mahayana, and takes Nagarjuna as authoritative (see note 2), and he equated dependent origination with emptiness, and made that the basis for him to refute literally everything (see note 1), this means that the most common understanding of dependent origination is that samsara and nibbana do not exist. Since samsara and nibbana are all that exist, then nothing exists.
The Theravada position is that nibbana does exist, again I demonstrated this above too, and I'll do again below. The Theravada position is also that dhammas exist as well, and that mind, mental factors, matter and nibbana are ultimate realities, and have intrinsic nature, which is precisely what Nagarjuna claimed that absolutely nothing has. (see note 3).
There is a great deal of support for Nagarjuna on this forum, so that can be evidence of the Mahayana position even in Theravada.
One example, if you want more, keep reading, read other threads, too, do a
search.
Mahayana is the most common form of Buddhism in our contemporary times. Mahayana believes in Nagarjuna's teachings. Nagarjuna taught that nibbana doesn't exist, and neither does anything else. Nagarjuna taught that this is explained via dependent origination, which he sees as identical with emptiness.
In the Mulamadhyamakakarika, Nagarjuna goes through, point by point, and says every single thing does not exist, even the elements that make up matter, and consciousness, and ostensibly demonstrates that this is true.
1.)
Both samsara and nirvana,
Neither of these two exists;
The thorough understanding of cyclic existence
This is referred to as "nirvana"
-Nagarjuna, Sixty Stanzas, verse 6
There is no distinction whatsoever between samsara and nirvana; and there is no distinction whatsoever between nirvana and samsara.
-Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika, chapter 25
Within the Madhyamaka school, svabhava is used to describe the concept of sunyata (emptiness). In this context, svabhava is the "essence" or "inherenent existence" that things are empty of. This concept is central to Madhyamaka reasoning, in which Nagarjuna asserts that anything that arises due to causes and conditions can have no inherent existence (svabhava).
-encyclopedia of Buddhism
In his Madhyamakālaṃkāra (verses 92-93), Śāntarakṣita says:
By relying on the Mind Only (cittamatra), know that external entities do not exist. And by relying on this [madhyamaka] system, know that no self at all exists, even in that [mind]. Therefore, due to holding the reigns of logic as one rides the chariots of the two systems, one attains [the path of] the actual Mahayanist.
-Wikipedia page on Madhyamaka
In his writings, Nagarjuna attempts to show that any theory of intrinsic nature is contradicted by the Buddha's theory of dependent origination, since anything that has an independent existence cannot be dependently originated. The śūnyavāda philosophers were adamant that their denial of svabhāva is not a kind of nihilism (against protestations to the contrary by their opponents).[134]
Using the two truths theory, Madhyamaka claims that while one can speak of things existing in a conventional, relative sense, they do not exist inherently in an ultimate sense. Madhyamaka also argues that emptiness itself is also "empty", it does not have an absolute inherent existence of its own. It is also not to be understood as a transcendental absolute reality. Instead, the emptiness theory is merely a useful concept that should not be clung to. In fact, for Madhyamaka, since everything is empty of true existence, all things are just conceptualizations (prajñapti-matra), including the theory of emptiness, and all concepts must ultimately be abandoned in order to truly understand the nature of things.[135]
-Wikipedia page on Mahayana
2.)
Branch
Percentage
Number of Adherents
Mahayana
56%
185,000,000
Theravada
38%
124,000,000
Vajrayana (Tibetan)
6%
20,000,000
-Buddhanet
Nāgārjuna (c. 150 – c. 250 CE; simplified Chinese: 龙树; traditional Chinese: 龍樹; pinyin: Lóngshù; Tibetan: མགོན་པོ་ཀླུ་སྒྲུབ་, Wylie: mGon po Klu sgrub) was an Indian Mahāyāna Buddhist thinker, scholar-saint and philosopher. He is widely considered one of the most important Buddhist philosophers.[2] Furthermore, according to Jan Westerhoff, he is also "one of the greatest thinkers in the history of Asian philosophy."
-Wikipedia page on Nagarjuna
Madhyamaka ("middle way" or "centrism"; Chinese: 中觀見; pinyin: Zhōngguān Jìan; Tibetan: དབུ་མ་པ ; dbu ma pa) also known as śūnyavāda (the emptiness doctrine) and niḥsvabhāvavāda (the no svabhāva doctrine) refers to a tradition of Buddhist philosophy and practice founded by the Indian philosopher Nāgārjuna (c. 150 – c. 250 CE).[1][2] The foundational text of the mādhyamaka tradition is Nāgārjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (Root Verses on the Middle Way). More broadly, madhyamaka also refers to the ultimate nature of phenomena as well as the non-conceptual realization of ultimate reality that is experienced in meditation.[3]
Madhyamaka thought had a major influence on the subsequent development of the Mahayana Buddhist tradition. It is the dominant interpretation of Buddhist philosophy in Tibetan Buddhism and has also been influential in East Asian Buddhist thought.[4]
-Wikipedia page on Madhyamaka
3.)
Madhyamaka ("middle way" or "centrism"; Chinese: 中觀見; pinyin: Zhōngguān Jìan; Tibetan: དབུ་མ་པ ; dbu ma pa) also known as śūnyavāda (the emptiness doctrine) and niḥsvabhāvavāda (the no svabhāva doctrine)
-Wikipedia on Madhyamaka
It is the dhammas alone that possess ultimate reality: determinate existence “from their own side” (sarupato) independent of the minds conceptual processing of the data. Such a conception of the nature of the real seems to be already implicit in the Sutta Pitaka, particularly in the Buddha’s disquisitions on the aggregates, sense bases, elements, dependent arising, etc.,…
…
Thus by examining the conventional realities with wisdom, we eventually arrive at the objective actualities that lie behind our conceptual constructs. It is these objective actualities – the dhammas, which maintain their intrinsic natures independent of the mind’s constructive functions…
...
...the commentaries consummate the dhamma theory by supplying the formal definition of dhammas as "things which bear their own intrinsic nature" (attano sabhavam dharenti ti dhamma).
…
...concretely produced matter...possess intrinsic natures and are thus suitable for contemplation and comprehension by insight.
…
Great seers who are free from craving declare that Nibbana is an
objective state which is deathless, absolutely endless, unconditioned,
and unsurpassed.
Thus as fourfold the Tathagatas reveal the ultimate realities—
consciousness, mental factors, matter, and Nibbana.
-Bhikkhu Bodhi, Acariya Anuruddha, A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, pages 3, 15, 26, 235, 260
Nibbana is an existing reality, an article by Bhikkhu Bodhi
Regarding the nature of Nibbana, the question is often asked: Does Nibbana signify only extinction of the defilements and liberation from samsara or does it signify some reality existing in itself? Nibbana is not only the destruction of defilements and the end of samsara but a reality transcendent to the entire world of mundane experience, a reality transcendent to all the realms of phenomenal existence.
The Buddha refers to Nibbana as a 'dhamma'. For example, he says "of all dhammas, conditioned or unconditioned, the most excellent dhamma, the supreme dhamma is, Nibbana". 'Dhamma' signifies actual realities, the existing realities as opposed to conceptual things. Dhammas are of two types, conditioned and unconditioned. A conditioned dhamma is an actuality which has come into being through causes or conditions, something which arises through the workings of various conditions. The conditioned dhammas are the five aggregates: material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. The conditioned dhammas, do not remain static. They go through a ceaseless process of becoming. They arise, undergo transformation and fall away due to its conditionality.
However, the unconditioned dhamma is not produced by causes and conditions. It has the opposite characteristics from the conditioned: it has no arising, no falling away and it undergoes no transformation. Nevertheless, it is an actuality, and the Buddha refers to Nibbana as an unconditioned Dhamma.
The Buddha also refers to Nibbana as an 'ayatana'. This means realm, plane or sphere. It is a sphere where there is nothing at all that correspond to our mundane experience, and therefore it has to be described by way of negations as the negation of all the limited and determinate qualities of conditioned things.
The Buddha also refers to Nibbana as a, 'Dhatu' an element, the 'deathless element'. He compares the element of Nibbana to an ocean. He says that just as the great ocean remains at the same level no matter how much water pours into it from the rivers, without increase or decrease, so the Nibbana element remains the same, no matter whether many or few people attain Nibbana.
He also speaks of Nibbana as something that can be experienced by the body, an experience that is so vivid, so powerful, that it can be described as "touching the deathless element with one's own body."
The Buddha also refers to Nibbana as a 'state' ('pada') as 'amatapada' - the deathless state - or accutapada, the imperishable state.
Another word used by the Buddha to refer to Nibbana is 'Sacca', which means 'truth', an existing reality. This refers to Nibbana as the truth, a reality that the Noble ones have known through direct experience.
So all these terms, considered as a whole, clearly establish that Nibbana is an actual reality and not the mere destruction of defilements or the cessation of existence. Nibbana is unconditioned, without any origination and is timeless.
-Bhikkhu Bodhi
Nibbāna is Real
Since nibbāna means the cessation of mind, matter, and mental formations, suggestions have often been put forward that it signifies nothing and is thus useless. However, nibbāna is absolute reality, the reality of the nullification of the activities of mind, matter, and mental formations to which the knowledge of the Path, Fruition, and reviewing (paccavekkhaṇa) is inclined. It is the mind-object to which this knowledge is directed. Buddhas, Arahants, and Noble Ones vouch for the truth of its reality. For the sake of argument, let us say that there is no nibbāna where all the cycles of defilement, actions, and results cease. Then no one in this Universe can find peace. In the absence of nibbāna, defilement will play havoc with our lives to produce action, which will bring about results, which will create conditions for the arising of a new group of aggregates attended by suffering. It is only the Path and its Fruition that can exterminate defilements, and this extermination will bring the cycle of suffering to an end. This cessation of suffering is real. Buddhas and Arahants actually reach this stage, and after their parinibbāna all sufferings come to an end.
-Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
All that said, I feel like I'm on the end of a joke of some kind. I posted an actual quote of Nagarjuna saying neither samsara nor nirvana exist in the original post for this thread, then paraphrased that statement, and got a reply from a user stating that "no one says this" and then "agreed" from a different user. Considering these replies are obviously, necessarily incorrect, as is easily demonstrated by the post they are responding to, I can only assume someone is having a laugh. No one reads a direct quote of a widely influential authority on a topic, and its paraphrased form, and than says "no one says this." and "agreed" unless they're trying to be funny. Thus, since this seems to be silliness, I'll stop biting at this bait which is just leading me into a joke.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa