What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

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Red Belly
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Red Belly »

This conversation amply proves the fruitlessness of arguing with an addict, though I compliment Ceisiwir and many others for attempting to do so. And I use the word addict in the sense that addictions can be very subtle things, sometimes.

CandE, if after carefully reading the suttas, meditating and seeking guidance from qualified teachers* you genuinely believe that the use of hallucinatory drugs can be combined with a beneficial practice, in your case, then by all means continue to do so; all that can be done is to wish you luck on your path. May you find wisdom, peace and happiness.

For any others who are reading over this thread and wondering what the correct teaching is, I can only agree with the others who have said that the use of such drugs goes against the overwhelming - overwhelming - body of Buddhist tradition, whether Theravada or Mahayana**. Normally it would be tempting to simply shrug one's shoulders and let people do what they're going to do, but in this case such delusion all too often comes with a significant price. This is not a game. I greatly fear that the use of such substances can lead to suffering for a long time, both in this life and future lives.
Proceed with care.

:anjali:

* Though part of me wonders what teachers you are talking to!
** In fact, I just heard a Tibetan monk say that the use of psychedelic drugs is equally forbidden to both monks and laypeople in his tradition. If they want to advance in practice, that is.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:57 pm
Luckily that's not the argument then since the Buddha's teachings rely on common sense and extension of principle.
Do they? It's common sense that the self exists. I don't put much stock in common sense myself.

By your method there would be 2027 precepts by now not 227 for monks.
Th Buddha probably would add more rules, because people are always looking at ways to get around them.
The argument is - since alcohol and intoxicants which cause heedlessness are prohibited, should other substances be prohibited?

The answer for cocaine and narcotics is - yes, obviously

For psychedelics such as LSD - it depends how they are used. If used meditatively, then no.
The point of contention is if you can practice energy, mindfulness, clear comprehension and Jhāna whilst high. I asked you to define some of those terms in relation to answering that more clearly for you. You didn't do so.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Red Belly wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:16 pm This conversation amply proves the fruitlessness of arguing with an addict, though I compliment Ceisiwir and many others for attempting to do so. And I use the word addict in the sense that addictions can be very subtle things, sometimes.
You need to drastically redefine the term 'addict' also to someone with no physiological cravings who uses them in a meditative context every few months or sometimes even years.
Further someone who uses them as an aid to transcending worldly desire.

Clearly you are much more addicted to tea, coffee or television than I am to psychedelics.

Do you have any experience with them can I ask?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

I have mentioned also that there is a very highly regarded Western lay dhamma teacher who has told me they have used psychedelics in the past and says they would probably use them in future (as far as I know they do not use drugs of any kind).

I am not at liberty to say who they are but they are very accomplished mediators and obviousiy were able to use them wisely. I absolutely understand why they keep their views private though when these sort of histrionic reactions on the subject are produced by some.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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SDC
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by SDC »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:06 am I have mentioned also that there is a very highly regarded Western lay dhamma teacher who has told me they have used psychedelics in the past and says they would probably use them in future (as far as I know they do not use drugs of any kind).

I am not at liberty to say who they are but they are very accomplished mediators and obviousiy were able to use them wisely. I absolutely understand why they keep their views private though when these sort of histrionic reactions on the subject are produced by some.
Highly-regarded by who?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

SDC wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:14 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:06 am I have mentioned also that there is a very highly regarded Western lay dhamma teacher who has told me they have used psychedelics in the past and says they would probably use them in future (as far as I know they do not use drugs of any kind).

I am not at liberty to say who they are but they are very accomplished mediators and obviousiy were able to use them wisely. I absolutely understand why they keep their views private though when these sort of histrionic reactions on the subject are produced by some.
Highly-regarded by who?
Highly regarded by those who have attended their retreats and by other dhamma teachers.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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SDC
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by SDC »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:19 am
SDC wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:14 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:06 am I have mentioned also that there is a very highly regarded Western lay dhamma teacher who has told me they have used psychedelics in the past and says they would probably use them in future (as far as I know they do not use drugs of any kind).

I am not at liberty to say who they are but they are very accomplished mediators and obviousiy were able to use them wisely. I absolutely understand why they keep their views private though when these sort of histrionic reactions on the subject are produced by some.
Highly-regarded by who?
Highly regarded by those who have attended their retreats and by other dhamma teachers.
Sounds like a nice cozy container of like-minded thinkers supporting each other. Though it doesn’t help your case here. I don’t care if it is the most recognizable figure in western Theravada. After ruining their career by revealing “the big name”, the fact would still remain that an external substance doesn’t do the work of building endurance and fortifying diligence (what I described in my last post to you that you have yet to get around to).
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:06 am I have mentioned also that there is a very highly regarded Western lay dhamma teacher who has told me they have used psychedelics in the past and says they would probably use them in future (as far as I know they do not use drugs of any kind).

I am not at liberty to say who they are but they are very accomplished mediators and obviousiy were able to use them wisely. I absolutely understand why they keep their views private though when these sort of histrionic reactions on the subject are produced by some.
The fraught and disrobed former Paññobhāsa, famed for his interviews with neo-Nazi Brian Ruhe, also mixes psychedelics with his meditative practice. We've one person, someone who maybe exists and you can't name but who is "very highly regarded" by unknown persons, and another person who is a bit of an infamous basket-case who mixes them with his meditation practice. Nice and balanced.

Why on earth are you not at liberty to say? Were you asked not to divulge this information but are partially reneging on that here to prove a point that you feel is sufficiently important? I suppose these question are all just histrionics to you. Naming-calling is easy. Substantiation is hard, particularly for you in this case.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

SDC wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:12 am Sounds like a nice cozy container of like-minded thinkers supporting each other. Though it doesn’t help your case here.
It does help my case, since it's an alternative view than the one generally propagated here that I find some alignment with which recognizes the potential value.

It's also not some kind of echo chamber. It wasn't an open declaration it was something I personally asked about and got that answer. I imagine they might lose some of their audience if these views were widely known due to a triggering of the stereotyped and ignorant reactions.

SDC wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:14 am the fact would still remain that an external substance doesn’t do the work of building endurance and fortifying diligence (what I described in my last post to you that you have yet to get around to).
And I have never argued that they can be a replacement. The hard work of eradicating defilements still needs to be done through daily meditation and mindful living.
A peak experience while tripping doesn't magically negate all this.

To the extent that they can aid this endeavour they can be useful. To the extent that they can hinder it, they can be harmful.

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:44 am Why on earth are you not at liberty to say? Were you asked not to divulge this information but are partially reneging on that here to prove a point that you feel is sufficiently important?
I asked the question privately it's not something they openly endorsed or discuss. I also got the distict impression almost immediately that they were a bit concerned after having said it in case I were to name them sometime and the reputational effects. Of course that would never occur to me, so I merely share in the context of this discussion that there are amongst those who are accomplished in meditation and know their dhamma some who have come to this view.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:12 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:44 amWhy on earth are you not at liberty to say? Were you asked not to divulge this information but are partially reneging on that here to prove a point that you feel is sufficiently important?
I asked the question privately it's not something they openly endorsed or discuss. I also got the distict impression almost immediately that they were a bit concerned after having said it in case I were to mention them sometime and the reputational effects. Of course that would never occur to me, so I merely share in the context of this discussion that there are amongst those who are accomplished in meditation and know their dhamma some who have come to this view.
That's very convenient for you that this shadowy teacher with secrets doesn't want to you spill his. Now you can tell yourself that it is a matter of virtue for you not to substantiate your wild claim. It's possible he exists. It's possible he's widely-renowned. If he were truly so famous, so accustomed to having a wide range of students, I would think that he would be used to being more careful with his tongue if he really didn't want anyone to know his secret but a shadowy inner cabal of closest students.

All in all, it's a useless story that establishes nothing. At least I could name Paññobhāsa.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:16 am
That's very convenient for you that this shadowy teacher with secrets doesn't want to you spill his. Now you can tell yourself that it is a matter of virtue for you not to substantiate your wild claim. It's possible he exists. It's possible he's widely-renowned. If he were truly so famous, so accustomed to having a wide range of students, I would think that he would be used to being more careful with his tongue if he really didn't want anyone to know his secret but a shadowy inner cabal of closest students.
Yes it's 'convenient' blah blah 'the inner cabal'...these are the types of histrionics I refer to and no, I'm not going to let you or anyone drag someone's name down who I respect for more than you as a dhamma farer simply so you can have your fun.

Yes, "I was inducted into the shadowy world of the Western Dhamma elite and their hidden esoteric practices of using sacred substances to commune with the holy divine dharmakaya" :lol: (ok I am having some fun with this now but I couldn't resist after your last comment. Also I like this Alex Grey painting, does it make me a heretic?).
a83f960e5f75eec14936faddfe05e1ef--alex-grey-visionary-art.jpg

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:16 am All in all, it's a useless story that establishes nothing. At least I could name Paññobhāsa.
It was useful for me which is why I asked. I share it here and people may think of it what they will even though the person in question cannot be named.

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:44 am The fraught and disrobed former Paññobhāsa, famed for his interviews with neo-Nazi Brian Ruhe, also mixes psychedelics with his meditative practice. We've one person, someone who maybe exists and you can't name but who is "very highly regarded" by unknown persons, and another person who is a bit of an infamous basket-case who mixes them with his meditation practice. Nice and balanced.
You can add the former monk Jack Kornfield to the list since he has openly spoken about them before and even organized an event at Spirit rock about the intersection. So there are wiser and less reactionary approaches in the lay Western Dhamma to the subject.

https://jackkornfield.com/event/interse ... hist-path/

Jack Kornfield:"They were certainly powerful for me.I took LSD and other psychedelics at Dartmouth after I started studying Eastern religion.They came hand in hand, as they did for many people. In fact, the majority of Western Buddhist teachers used psychedelics at the start of their spiritual practice.A number still do on occasion.But of the many hundreds of people I know who took psychedelics, only a few had radically transformative experiences.Many others were greatly inspired, and a few were damaged.It's like winning the lottery. A lot of people play, and while not so many people win big,the potential is there."

https://bibliography.maps.org/resources/download/12777
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Rather than histrionics, that post was an accurate description of the non-evidence you gave that a certain famous undisclosed teacher uses psychedelics in their practice.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Ontheway
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ontheway »

Psychedelics for meditation was not found permissible by the Buddha in any Suttas, any Vinaya or Abhidhamma texts.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
santa100
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by santa100 »

Psychedelics definitely should not be used by practitioners on the Path. It's not a coincidence that psychedelics like mescalline, LSD/magic mushrooms, psilocybin, DMT, etc.. are called hallucinogenic drugs. While these drugs might benefit patients with anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, or depression, and there're preliminary research/data which support that, they bring no benefit (in the most optimistic case) for normal healthy folks who want to cultivate the Buddha Dhamma. Bottom line is, if one is a patient with anxiety, PTSD, depression, etc... then it's perfectly fine to consult with their doctor who might prescribe a hallucinogenic drug like psilocybin to treat their illness. But if s/he's a normal healthy individual, there should be no reason to use those drugs, let alone one who's cultivating the Buddha Dhamma.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:21 am Psychedelics definitely should not be used by practitioners on the Path. It's not a coincidence that psychedelics like mescalline, LSD/magic mushrooms, psilocybin, DMT, etc.. are called hallucinogenic drugs. While these drugs might benefit patients with anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, or depression, and there're preliminary research/data which support that, they bring no benefit (in the most optimistic case) for normal healthy folks who want to cultivate the Buddha Dhamma. Bottom line is, if one is a patient with anxiety, PTSD, depression, etc... then it's perfectly fine to consult with their doctor who might prescribe a hallucinogenic drug like psilocybin to treat their illness. But if s/he's a normal healthy individual, there should be no reason to use those drugs, let alone one who's cultivating the Buddha Dhamma.
:goodpost:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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