What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22404
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:03 am

Back to pushing the annihilationist doctrine I see.
An annihilationist believes in a self which can be destroyed. An enternalist believes in a self that is never destroyed. I'm neither of those things.
The mind is liberated from becoming. Whether you want to say there is a 'core' or not there is something which is liberated.

The Buddha said all phenomena have liberation as their core he didn't say there is no core.
Citta is dependently originated. It is dependent upon nāmarūpa thus being without substance, without permanence, without self, empty.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3073
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:57 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:03 am

Back to pushing the annihilationist doctrine I see.
An annihilationist believes in a self which can be destroyed. An enternalist believes in a self that is never destroyed. I'm neither of those things.
The mind is liberated from becoming. Whether you want to say there is a 'core' or not there is something which is liberated.

The Buddha said all phenomena have liberation as their core he didn't say there is no core.
Citta is dependently originated. It is dependent upon nāmarūpa thus being without substance, without permanence, without self, empty.
How does “one” recognize above mentioned “empty”? Is there a perception or awareness of empty? Maybe not in Abhidhamma. Maybe not in Mahayana. But there is in Nikayas.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:57 amIs there a perception or awareness of empty? Maybe not in Abhidhamma. Maybe not in Mahayana.
The first of the bodhisattva bhūmis is described as "form is emptiness, emptiness is form." You are always seeing and engaging with emptiness. The worldling does not realize this. Even if he hears "form is emptiness, emptiness is form," it is merely an intellectual position if there is no Bodhi. For someone who says that they have spent a long time wandering through the Prajñāpāramitā, it seems like you could maybe use a refresher.

Also, there is the description of forest meditation as "empty of the perception of other persons" and "empty of the perception of the forest" etc. in both the āgamas and nikāyas.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:57 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:03 am

Back to pushing the annihilationist doctrine I see.
An annihilationist believes in a self
annihilation is implied by no self


eternal identity is implied by self
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:57 pm Citta is dependently originated.
this is not found in the teaching
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

A user claims, contrary to the Buddhadhamma, that "annihilation is implied by no self." This post and the subsequent non-dialogue will contextualize some of the confusion present between "implies, in my opinion," and "actually objectively means."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:54 pm A user claims … that annihilation is implied by no self.
If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism.

Ananda Sutta
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by bodom »

*MOD NOTE*

Please return to topic. Anymore off topic posts will be immediately removed. Thanks.


:focus:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3073
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:33 pm
Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:57 amIs there a perception or awareness of empty? Maybe not in Abhidhamma. Maybe not in Mahayana.
The first of the bodhisattva bhūmis is described as "form is emptiness, emptiness is form." You are always seeing and engaging with emptiness. The worldling does not realize this. Even if he hears "form is emptiness, emptiness is form," it is merely an intellectual position if there is no Bodhi. For someone who says that they have spent a long time wandering through the Prajñāpāramitā, it seems like you could maybe use a refresher.

Also, there is the description of forest meditation as "empty of the perception of other persons" and "empty of the perception of the forest" etc. in both the āgamas and nikāyas.
That’s kind of my point. I HAVE wandered through the Prajnaparamita literature and I DO know what their answer would be. Hence the reason I said “Mahayana may not have a position on emptiness, but the Nikayas do.”

Hence the question - what is the stance on emptiness from an EBT standpoint?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Your wrongness would suggest otherwise, as testified by your wrong statement. You are at variance with the definition of the first bodhisattva bhumi.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:57 pm
An annihilationist believes in a self which can be destroyed. An enternalist believes in a self that is never destroyed. I'm neither of those things.
This is wrong view. As per the Vaccagotta sutta an annihilationist holds the view that there is no self.

An eternalist holds the view that there is a permanent self, yes.

Someone who holds the view of a self which fully ceases at death would be simply a materialist.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:57 pm
Citta is dependently originated. It is dependent upon nāmarūpa thus being without substance, without permanence, without self, empty.
Citta is liberated
All phenomena have liberation as their core
Liberation is Nibbana
Nibbana is consciousness without surface, separate from the aggregates

All the above statements have a canonical basis.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:30 pm Citta isn't some thing floating around.
Indeed it isn't. But an abhidhamma studier may conceive of it in various ways.

What I found from psychedelic experience is that protoconsciousness or witnessing faculty, is part of the structure of reality and can't appear or dissapear, in the same way as time or space.

I don't find the suttas contradicting this position and I find several passages in support in the Canon.

What you refer to as dependently arisen is simply nama-rupa and sensory consciousness, niether of which refers to the background protoconsciousnes without surface.

I am also not claiming this background awareness is 'God' or a creator, but it is deathless in some attribute.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3073
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:12 am Your wrongness would suggest otherwise, as testified by your wrong statement. You are at variance with the definition of the first bodhisattva bhumi.
Why would I care if I’m at variance with a Mahayana concept on a Theravada discussion forum?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22404
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:51 am
This is wrong view. As per the Vaccagotta sutta an annihilationist holds the view that there is no self.
The annihilationist position being referred to there is in thinking "the self I formerly had does not exist now."
Someone who holds the view of a self which fully ceases at death would be simply a materialist.
No necessarily. An annihilationist could believe in rebirth and non-physical attas. There were likely annihilationists of this kind when the Buddha was alive, based on the textual evidence. Annihilationism then to them wasn't something that just simply happened at death to everyone, regardless of spiritual attainment. Rather it was something one had to achieve through meditative practice. It is very possible that the Buddha himself started out as this type of annihilationist.
Citta is liberated
All phenomena have liberation as their core
Liberation is Nibbana
Nibbana is consciousness without surface, separate from the aggregates

All the above statements have a canonical basis.
Citta is liberated, yes. The question is what does that mean? Does it mean the mind is liberated from the āsavā, or does it mean it floats off somewhere to exist forever akin to the Jain doctrine where the eternal consciousness of the awakened ones ascends to the top of the universe? Which do you think the Buddha had in mind, considering that citta is dependently originated and so empty in much the same way that the body is?
No it isn't. But an abhidhamma studier without either much meditation or psychedelic experience may conceive of it in various ways.

What I found from psychedelic experience is that protoconsciousness or witnessing faculty, is part of the structure of reality and can't appear or dissapear in the same way as time or space.

I don't find the suttas contradicting this position and I find several passages in support in the Canon.

What you refer to as dependently arisen is simply nama-rupa and sensory consciousness, niether of which refers to the background protoconsciousnes without surface.
I've taken copious amounts of different drugs in my life, and I'm not much interested in hearing about your drug induced experiences here.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:59 am
I've taken copious amounts of different drugs in my life, and I'm not much interested in hearing about your drug induced experiences here.
And I'm not interested in hearing about your use of 'copius amounts of different drugs'.

This thread is specifically about psychedelic experiences and relation to meditation. If you don't want to hear about these experiences, then leave the thread.
The door is that way.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22404
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:07 am
And I'm not interested in hearing about your use of 'copius amounts of different drugs'.
Point being you aren't the only one to have tried these things, and aren't the first to be fooled by them.
This thread is specifically about psychedelic experiences and relation to meditation. If you don't want to here about these experiences, then leave the thread.
The door is that way.
Actually the thread is about what the Orthodox Theravāda position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics is. So, you are in fact off topic in arguing for drug use based on your rather run-of-the-mill and predictably boring "insights" whilst high on them. Drug use doesn't even compare to merely a second of even access concentration. Try that instead. You'll be better for it. Quit looking for quick fixes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Post Reply