What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:15 pmI'm not interested in getting into your analysis based on a later false doctine (abhidhamma) and devoid of experience.
What about your own analysis, based on later false doctrines formulated during the 1950s and 60s by quacks and hacks, which is devoid of the authentic experience of the fruits of the Dharma?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:34 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:53 pmJust think why alchohol, for example, is called "spirits", and why feelings under the influence of these substances is often associated with lightness.
Alcohol is called "spirits," because when pure alcohol evaporates it looks like spirits are hovering over the fluid. Random trivia.
I never knew that :jumping:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

It might be wrong, as it turns out. I heard it on QI maybe a year ago, but they do make mistakes. I just tried to find a substantiation for the etymology given on QI, but a lot of sources are giving an explanation like Bundokji's, which I had thought was wrong. A lot of sources are basically saying that either 1) the alcohol evaporates "like a spirit" into the "heavens," or 2) it leaves you in high "spirits" (which is similar to Bundokji's usage).

TBH, Wiktionary seems to have the best explanation, but it's completely different from the others:
Entered in the early 15th c. from Middle English alcofol, from Middle French alcohol or Spanish alcohol, derived from the Medieval Latin rendering alcohol transmitted in medical or alchemical literature of Arabic اَلْكُحْل‎ (al-kuḥl, “kohl”), which in Andalusian Arabic also bore the form كُحُول‎ (kuḥūl), قُحُول‎ (quḥūl); bearing thus the meaning of stibnite first, then generalized in meaning to a powder obtained by triturating a material, then also to liquids obtained by boiling down, and specialized to mean spirit of wine, ethanol, in the 18th century, then the narrow chemical sense after 1850.
Unfortunately, this tracing of the term has no updated citations there and the links are all dead. Perhaps Bundokji can tell us more about how the Andalusian Arabic al-kuḥūl/al-quḥūl goes from referring to a cosmetic powder to liquor?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Bundokji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:00 pm It might be wrong, as it turns out. I heard it on QI maybe a year ago, but they do make mistakes. I just tried to find a substantiation for the etymology given on QI, but a lot of sources are giving an explanation like Bundokji's, which I had thought was wrong. A lot of sources are basically saying that either 1) the alcohol evaporates "like a spirit" into the "heavens," or 2) it leaves you in high "spirits" (which is similar to Bundokji's usage).

TBH, Wiktionary seems to have the best explanation, but it's completely different from the others:
Entered in the early 15th c. from Middle English alcofol, from Middle French alcohol or Spanish alcohol, derived from the Medieval Latin rendering alcohol transmitted in medical or alchemical literature of Arabic اَلْكُحْل‎ (al-kuḥl, “kohl”), which in Andalusian Arabic also bore the form كُحُول‎ (kuḥūl), قُحُول‎ (quḥūl); bearing thus the meaning of stibnite first, then generalized in meaning to a powder obtained by triturating a material, then also to liquids obtained by boiling down, and specialized to mean spirit of wine, ethanol, in the 18th century, then the narrow chemical sense after 1850.
Unfortunately, this tracing of the term has no updated citations there and the links are all dead. Perhaps Bundokji can tell us more about how the Andalusian Arabic al-kuḥūl/al-quḥūl goes from referring to a cosmetic powder to liquor?
I did not look into the etymology (i might do that later), but if i could reflect on the Islamic attitude towards alchohol. Before Islam, Arabs were polytheistic until the appearance of prophet Muhammad. Alchohol used to be consumed and was mostly made from dates. Unlike other Islamic precepts, it was not banned all at once, but it began by asking Muslims to refrain from consuming it to concentrate while doing the prayers. This lead Muslims to consume alchohol late in the night after the evening prayer so they can sober up by the dawn prayer. This is why, until today, there is a division among Muslim scholars whether it is completely banned or advised to be avoided. The majority who believe it is banned use Hadith to substantiate their claims, not the Quran. Also in Christianity, from my limited knowledge, using alchohol in moderation is said to have benefits, including for the heart.

The banning of alchohol and adultery on earth is substituted by promises of promiscuity in heaven. Such descriptions exists in Buddhist cosmology where the sensual realm seems to regard the great Brahma as the highest of status. The first Jhana where he resides is marked by unified thought, which seems to be the stepping stone between monotheism towards polytheism, or between Abrahamic religions and dhammic religions. This is where ascetic practices are probably undertaken, and where knowledge of things is not held hostage to the senses, nor substances that could influence them. In ancient philosophy, esteemed philosophers were known not to be affected by alchohol, even if they consume large amounts of it. Socrates comes to mind.

In the dualities of the sensual realm, where the Buddha gave his teachings a visible form, monastics represent asceticism while lay followers are allowed to indulge in moderation. And yet, he declared his path to be the middle between the two. It is to be rediscovered under his guidance and to be realized each for himself. This approach allow for presenting the text in an objective way, but also makes it inseparable from the individual practitioner and their level of mental development. It is an antidote to dogma as i see it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Bundokji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:00 pm alcofol, from Middle French alcohol or Spanish alcohol, derived from the Medieval Latin rendering alcohol transmitted in medical or alchemical literature of Arabic اَلْكُحْل‎ (al-kuḥl, “kohl”), which in Andalusian Arabic also bore the form كُحُول‎ (kuḥūl), قُحُول‎ (quḥūl); bearing thus the meaning of stibnite first, then generalized in meaning to a powder obtained by triturating a material, then also to liquids obtained by boiling down, and specialized to mean spirit of wine, ethanol, in the 18th century, then the narrow chemical sense after 1850.
[/quote]

كحل is used to beautify the eye, and used to be made from natural substance. In its modern form, it is used as a pencil to draw a dark line around the eye ball. In nomadic cultures, it is used by both men and women and it is said to have health benefits for the eye to protect it from certain ailments.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

It seems that the word at one point becomes associated with the sublimation process used to extract the powder from the stone called antimonite? Eventually, this come to accrue senses like "boiling" and "distillation." That's what I can put together, but I don't really get what "sublimation" is supposed to be. I don't have a science background really, just a few courses at the undergraduate level. One source I'm looking at suggests that the antimonite was simply ground to make the kohl, as in a mortal with a pestle; but a different source suggests that the antimonite was "sublimated" to make the kohl. I'm clearly out of my depth.

Tying this back into relevance, this subconversation was to-do with why we call alcohol "spirits" in English. The fine power of the kohl was the "spirit" (in the sense of "essence") of the antimonite. When the sense of "sublimation" veers toward "distillation" as a derived sense, then alcohol becomes the "spirit"/"essence" of the treated liquid.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:30 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:15 pm
No it isn't, not the core.
There is no core to the mind. The mind is hollow, without substance.
Back to pushing the annihilationist doctrine I see.

The mind is liberated from becoming. Whether you want to say there is a 'core' or not there is something which is liberated.

The Buddha said all phenomena have liberation as their core he didn't say there is no core.
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:46 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:15 pmI'm not interested in getting into your analysis based on a later false doctine (abhidhamma) and devoid of experience.
What about your own analysis, based on later false doctrines formulated during the 1950s and 60s by quacks and hacks, which is devoid of the authentic experience of the fruits of the Dharma?
Again I think you are equating your recreational drug use involving many other substances as well, with use of psychedelics alone in a purely meditative context.
The 60's argument may have had some listeners if not for the fact that there has been tons of research since then verifying the benefits.
It's also from direct experience not theory.

I'm glad you are so overly concerned about my welfare (somehow I don't think that is the issue here) but where there is ambiguity in the suttas each of us is free to use our own judgement and discernment to determine if something is beneficial and aligned with dhamma based upon the results. No one today classes psychedelics together with alcohol and narcotics. Since the Canon prohibits alcohol and by extension intoxicants like narcotics this leaves in my view the status of psychedelics as indeterminate according to Early Buddhism.

Your statement regarding others experience of the fruits of dhamma or not is also without basis.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Tennok »

SDC wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:21 pm In retrospect, they didn’t help me much at all. The world changed its shape, and the defilements when dormant - dormant because the world couldn’t pressure me. It was almost as if the work to abandon them was over, but in truth they simply went into shock, stunned in place. Damn pleasant, I won’t lie, but they came back all the same. The real work of virtue and restraint, and discernment on account of both - that change happens against powerful, active defilements. Taking them head-on on a day to day basis will ensure you that you’re getting them at full-strength, and whatever endurance you developed will be based on that - not on a stunned version of them. If you poison an tiger and then beat him in a fight, you didn’t really beat the tiger. And believe me, it will remember what you tried to do and will remind of it.
:goodpost:

I had a very similiar experience. I would call it a "fake spiritual progress". I can still remember insights and lessons I had during my meditation retreats. But those wild trips from my neo hippie youth...fun as they were, they don't relate, realy. And after you sober up, you have to deal with all the raw energies and challenges of Samsara. I felt like in some RP game, I lost all my XP and had to start from the beginning, but with some weird memories - and flashbacks.

Not to mention, that psychedelics are dangerous. Deadly dangerous. I knew kids, including my good friends, who went Syd Barret, or took their own life, becouse of one bad acid trip. It can be a trigger of a severe mental illness for some folks. Even the "innocent" weed...

The percept against intoxication is kinda obvious. We need to deal with our defilments and ignorance. And drugs, even psychedelics, create additional layer of illusion to cloud our minds, same like sex, porn, games, arts, movies and social media. It's not like Gautama was a Puritan, obsessed by morality for the sake of it. He teaches us to avoid all distractions.

( But I still have a soft spot for psilocibine mashrooms...even if I didn't eat them for decades...and not plan to do it again in this life. Them mushrooms have serious healing powers, and the science is discovering that today )
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I also know a few who, after their first time with a very large dose of DMT, only talked nonsense after, their intelligence crumbled and ruined as if by dementia. One of them now thinks he's a "targeted person" whom some shadowy government agency follows and harasses. They can definitely be a serious catalyst for mental illness in some.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I found this relatively recent report on the effect of Ayahuasca on people suffering from depression:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6378413/

Dr. Fried of Leiden University describes multiple concerning areas of evidence-tweaking and dubious clinical practice in the study:

What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by SDC »

Tennok wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:06 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:21 pm
:goodpost:

I had a very similiar experience. I would call it a "fake spiritual progress". I can still remember insights and lessons I had during my meditation retreats. But those wild trips from my neo hippie youth...fun as they were, they don't relate, realy. And after you sober up, you have to deal with all the raw energies and challenges of Samsara. I felt like in some RP game, I lost all my XP and had to start from the beginning, but with some weird memories - and flashbacks.

Not to mention, that psychedelics are dangerous. Deadly dangerous. I knew kids, including my good friends, who went Syd Barret, or took their own life, becouse of one bad acid trip. It can be a trigger of a severe mental illness for some folks. Even the "innocent" weed...

The percept against intoxication is kinda obvious. We need to deal with our defilments and ignorance. And drugs, even psychedelics, create additional layer of illusion to cloud our minds, same like sex, porn, games, arts, movies and social media. It's not like Gautama was a Puritan, obsessed by morality for the sake of it. He teaches us to avoid all distractions.

( But I still have a soft spot for psilocibine mashrooms...even if I didn't eat them for decades...and not plan to do it again in this life. Them mushrooms have serious healing powers, and the science is discovering that today )
:thumbsup:

I will say this much. For me, I had the effects last for 6 month to a year on one occasion of taking a heavy dose of mushrooms, in the sense that I “benefited” from how things were reshaped for a long time after. Far more than any previous time. It did redirect my focus and allow me to shed some difficult things I was dealing with, but having already been deep into a Dhamma practice, I lost the work. Like I said, things were as if stunned, or perhaps “suspended” is a better word, and I was unable to gain traction. I simply couldn’t find the texture I was familiar with - experience was without the normal depth, so I didn’t have much to do. At the time it was pleasant, but I was doubtful about what it meant and if it was solid progress. That doubt in itself was enough of a sign that it was likely something that I could backslide from, which I eventually did. Not hard, but it was as if the gas had run out and the gain had been lost.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by thepea »

Fifth precept: observe not taking intoxicants.

Black's Law Dictionary DeLuxe, Fourth Edition, defines "intoxication" as "[T]he state of being poisoned; the condition produced by the administration or introduction into the human system of a poison.

Poison- magic potion; liquid. Eradicates life.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by justindesilva »

thepea wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:55 pm Fifth precept: observe not taking intoxicants.

Black's Law Dictionary DeLuxe, Fourth Edition, defines "intoxication" as "[T]he state of being poisoned; the condition produced by the administration or introduction into the human system of a poison.

Poison- magic potion; liquid. Eradicates life.

I had observed in my long life , in which I never had liquor on principle, many of my friends either felt sick unmaturedly or died early. My father at 74 died with enlarged heart. Another few died with cancers.
Some others died with fatal accidents.
This shows that alcohol affects our body any where , not only the brain, but lungs, hearrt, intestine, kydneys. Alcohol especially enters parts of brain, causing immediate imbalance
loss of memory and concentration, dementia at premature stages along parkinsons neural diseases.
Many also end up psychodelics after drinking alcohol for long. I have also observed canabis and drug smokers with various deceases caused with nervously weakened physical systems, unable to eat drink or stand by their effort.
This is why perhaps 5th precept has to be maintained, and is proved.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Tennok »

Speaking from experience, psychedelics can bring relief to people who are lost in hell realms, drunk, depressed, traumatized, suicidal. In my case I got temporary better, after I found them as a kid - in a way.

But like SDC wrote, you can't do real work with hindrances, when you are high, elevated by drugs. Psychedelics can give one some very strong experiences, somehow unearned. It's a fool's gold.

Nowadays, I have to follow the Noble Path to get my petty Samadhi, care for sila, study, develop Right View. I don't drink, try to avoid stupid things. It's all combined, and eventual "high" ,the pleasant moments of practice, come after honest work, dealing with real psychological content, my kamma. Dukkha losens it's grip, and pitti and sukha appear if I do well. It's fair, like a decent trade.

In case of psychedelics, a stoned teenager can experience Absolut, Oneness etc, and start to belief he is a new William Blake or Aldous Huxley. But it's just bullshit, like a dude in a mental clinic thinking he is a Napoleon. And you loose a chance to see the pathetic reality of your life, hindrances, and delusions. Your condition.

I have a very mixed feeling about whole neurotransmitter thing. Perhaps it makes sense to offer psylocibine to reduce fear of death and cure addictions. But, at the end of the day, those magic pills prevents one from finding a true freedeom. It's like with a deva realm, it's very hard to practice and learn about dukkha, if you are trapped in some fake paradise. Human rebirth is better.

And I'm sure in Buddha days there were many drug taking sramanas, like modern Shiva followers in India. But, for some reasons, Gautama tells us : Don't be heedless. Avoid intoxicants. Drugs are bad."

Psychedelics are drugs, just more subtle.
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