What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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SDC
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by SDC »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:31 pm
The automatic "drugs all same, all bad, forbidden" crowd should really stop to reflect on the significance of this, that they are so close to neurotransmitters.

They switch the frequency of the brain.

You would have thought there would be more excitment and enthusiasm about the possibilities but apparently not from many.
For some (not all) meditators on the spiritual path these substances can be potentially some of the most interesting and profound tools, in the Universe.
What does that even mean? Where in the suttas does it say that the universe is there for your well-being? The Buddha describes the body/the world/the universe as not your domain. Yet, you want to claim that not only is this one substance okay for the body, but that the body is okay as well?

Earlier you said that these substances aren’t named in the suttas, well neither are video games listed in the seventh precept, so by that logic…

Listen, I’ve gotten a lot out of my time with psychedelics, but they only help clear up the character you play in the world. They don’t do any of what has to be done as described in the suttas.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:14 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:21 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:25 am

The majority here are confused with laylife and practicing the noble path.
To root out defilements one must strictly follow precepts, this means do not even take Advil for headache if you can manage.
Which precept says that?
I’m speaking from my comprehension of buddhas teachings through practice in samadhi development.
Is this acceptable to do this?
Sure! It doesn't breach the ToS. And it's good of you to acknowledge that you are talking about "your comprehension", which may well be different from Buddhavacana as preserved in the suttas. That way, people can make up their own mind as to whether to trust your view, or the words of the Buddha.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by asahi »

The position of Buddha is more appropriate imo , which is , say No to hallucination stuffs as simple as this . Full stop .
No bashing No gossiping
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

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Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:45 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:14 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:21 pm

Which precept says that?
I’m speaking from my comprehension of buddhas teachings through practice in samadhi development.
Is this acceptable to do this?
Sure! It doesn't breach the ToS. And it's good of you to acknowledge that you are talking about "your comprehension", which may well be different from Buddhavacana as preserved in the suttas. That way, people can make up their own mind as to whether to trust your view, or the words of the Buddha.
I have no power over anyone to force them to accept my views. This is why we have freedom of speech.
If what I say resonates, so be it.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:33 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:45 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:14 pm
I’m speaking from my comprehension of buddhas teachings through practice in samadhi development.
Is this acceptable to do this?
Sure! It doesn't breach the ToS. And it's good of you to acknowledge that you are talking about "your comprehension", which may well be different from Buddhavacana as preserved in the suttas. That way, people can make up their own mind as to whether to trust your view, or the words of the Buddha.
I have no power over anyone to force them to accept my views.
:thumbsup: Here, you are armed only with logic, knowledge, and your personal credibility. Good luck!
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:39 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:33 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:45 pm

Sure! It doesn't breach the ToS. And it's good of you to acknowledge that you are talking about "your comprehension", which may well be different from Buddhavacana as preserved in the suttas. That way, people can make up their own mind as to whether to trust your view, or the words of the Buddha.
I have no power over anyone to force them to accept my views.
:thumbsup: Here, you are armed only with logic, knowledge, and your personal credibility. Good luck!
Don’t forget the most important quality, wisdom.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

SDC wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:28 pm
What does that even mean? Where in the suttas does it say that the universe is there for your well-being? The Buddha describes the body/the world/the universe as not your domain. Yet, you want to claim that not only is this one substance okay for the body, but that the body is okay as well?
The world can be transcended through the mind, and I see these substances as potentially helping with that endeavour.
SDC wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:28 pm
Listen, I’ve gotten a lot out of my time with psychedelics, but they only help clear up the character you play in the world. They don’t do any of what has to be done as described in the suttas.
Tell us how they have helped you?
A large part of the path is to 'clear up the character you play in the world'.
I feel they can go beyond this also (again, for some only and I respect the decision to see the as off limits)
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:52 pm
Tell us how they have helped you?
A large part of the path is to 'clear up the character you play in the world'.
I feel they can go beyond this also (again, for some only and I respect the decision to see the as off limits)
I’m not a drug user and never have been but I did use alcohol years ago(which I imagine is different from what you are discussing).
I see drugs helpful to some like medication can be to those with bu-polar or adhd. But eventually you want to ween free from their use for bare-awareness. Using stimulants is altering the reality opposed to seeing it as it presents.
You may want deep concentration, you may be sitting with boredom and surface stuff. The unbinding process should just happen naturally without manipulation. Drugs are manipulating the situation and strengthening desire.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:52 pm [The world can be transcended through the mind, and I see these substances as potentially helping with that endeavour.
The mind is part of the world. You can’t be in Jhana whilst high on acid, and you can’t reach Nibbana without Jhana. It’s an Eightfold Path, not 8 + drugs.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Bundokji »

Padmist wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:49 pm Is that correct? I heard some Buddhists argue that the last one has therapeutic benefits and even spiritual. Is this true? Or does it break the precepts as well?
I guess their effect, both positive and negative, is confined where the four elements are operative. Within this structure, the body is the center of gravity and the mind represents ethereality. Just think why alchohol, for example, is called "spirits", and why feelings under the influence of these substances is often associated with lightness.

In DN11, the four elements have footings up to the first Jhana. It is where the Great Brahma resides and is unable to answer the monk's question. It is the same Brahma that is still under the influence of Mara, even though he is higher, one step above the sensual realm.

The path to the truth begins by guarding it. If one has not gone beyond the first Jhana, they are incapable of making categorical statements about the use of substances. Based on the texts though, the use of substances does not lead to higher attainments. The relationship between meditative attainments and sila makes the ordinary understanding of sila inline with mundane rightview. By definition, mundane understanding is not without effluents.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:52 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:28 pm
Listen, I’ve gotten a lot out of my time with psychedelics, but they only help clear up the character you play in the world. They don’t do any of what has to be done as described in the suttas.
Tell us how they have helped you?
A large part of the path is to 'clear up the character you play in the world'.
A critical portion is to clear up the character through virtue, but that is just the beginning. That character must then be relinquished, along with the world.

In retrospect, they didn’t help me much at all. The world changed its shape, and the defilements when dormant - dormant because the world couldn’t pressure me. It was almost as if the work to abandon them was over, but in truth they simply went into shock, stunned in place. Damn pleasant, I won’t lie, but they came back all the same. The real work of virtue and restraint, and discernment on account of both - that change happens against powerful, active defilements. Taking them head-on on a day to day basis will ensure you that you’re getting them at full-strength, and whatever endurance you developed will be based on that - not on a stunned version of them. If you poison an tiger and then beat him in a fight, you didn’t really beat the tiger. And believe me, it will remember what you tried to do and will remind of it.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:53 pmJust think why alchohol, for example, is called "spirits", and why feelings under the influence of these substances is often associated with lightness.
Alcohol is called "spirits," because when pure alcohol evaporates it looks like spirits are hovering over the fluid. Random trivia.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Bundokji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:34 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:53 pmJust think why alchohol, for example, is called "spirits", and why feelings under the influence of these substances is often associated with lightness.
Alcohol is called "spirits," because when pure alcohol evaporates it looks like spirits are hovering over the fluid. Random trivia.
Maybe, but going higher in the sensual realm includes both intoxicants and sex. The devas have nymphs, and monotheistic depictions of jhana (paradise) includes rivers of alchohol. Letting go of attachments in the sensual realm is closer to nihilism than eternalism (hence described as the best wrong view by some). It is a kind of reward of hard work done in the lower realms, where the world becomes more permissive. The non-linearity continues through adopting a different view of time. The Buddha indulged in sensuality for 29 years before taking the ascetic path. At the age of 35, in his very first sermon, he declared the middle path between hedonism and asceticism.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:22 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:52 pm [The world can be transcended through the mind, and I see these substances as potentially helping with that endeavour.
The mind is part of the world. You can’t be in Jhana whilst high on acid, and you can’t reach Nibbana without Jhana. It’s an Eightfold Path, not 8 + drugs.
No it isn't, not the core.
The suttas say the world is the 6 sense bases and their objects.
The suttas also say that a deathless base (ayatana) should be known that is beyond the 6 sense bases, and that this is the liberation of mind.

So no, the mind is not part of the world only sensory consciousness is.

Either way, we can keep on topic I'm not interested in getting into your analysis based on a later false doctine (abhidhamma) and devoid of experience.

And yes, you can enter jhana on acid since acid is not a sense indulgence it is simply a mind amplifier or manifester.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:15 pm
No it isn't, not the core.
There is no core to the mind. The mind is hollow, without substance.
The suttas say the world is the 6 sense bases and their objects.
The suttas also say that a deathless base (ayatana) should be known that is beyond the 6 sense bases, and that this is the liberation of mind.
Back to the citta fetish I see. Citta isn't some thing floating around. It's simply a way of describing the more passive and emotive aspect of mind.
Either way, we can keep on topic I'm not interested in getting into your analysis based on a later false doctine (abhidhamma) and devoid of experience.
So far I haven't mentioned the Abhidhamma at all. Last time I paraphrased the suttas, and you didn't like that. No Buddhist tradition has recommended taking drugs in order to awaken, bar possibly some tantric aberrations. I'm sure you are right though and these traditions just got it all wrong, for over 2000 years, because the Buddha might have said something, maybe, which was forgotten, possibly, about something you really enjoy doing :?
And yes, you can enter jhana on acid since acid is not a sense indulgence it is simply a mind amplifier or manifester.
Jhāna requires focused attention to one perception. Hard to do, when you are high on drugs.

You also like to fall back on "well it only says alcohol". As I said previously, by that logic I can sometimes snort cocaine or drop some MDMA.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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