What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:59 am Citta is liberated, yes. The question is what does that mean? Does it mean the mind is liberated from the āsavā, or does it mean it floats off somewhere to exist forever akin to the Jain doctrine where the eternal consciousness of the awakened ones ascends to the top of the universe? Which do you think the Buddha had in mind, considering that citta is dependently originated and so empty in much the same way that the body is?
Your framework is wrong. Protoconsciousness doesn't 'float' away, the universe itself exists within this fathom long body and some dimension of mind which is liberated.

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:12 am Actually the thread is about what the Orthodox Theravāda position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics is. So, you are in fact off topic in arguing for drug use based on your rather run-of-the-mill and predictably boring "insights" whilst high on them. Drug use doesn't even compare to merely a second of even access concentration. Try that instead. You'll be better for it. Quit looking for quick fixes.
How am I 'off topic'? I am also not arguing for or against the widespread use of psychedelics amongst meditators.
There is no mention of psychedelics in the canon, hence this discussion which involves insights from psychedelic experiences.
Attempts to equate alcohol and narcotics with psychedelics are embarrassingly weak and have no basis in the canon or from modern research and merely reflect your personal biases.

It's no coincidence as I see it that both yourself and Coemgenu have extensive prior drug use with a variety of substances and are so strongly against them or the idea that certain substances can play a beneficial role.
I get that, and I don't want to damage that mentality if it maybe risks you relapsing since you used and class all drugs together recreationally.

However many of us are not in that position and can use psychedelics judiciously and integrate them with the work of meditative insight.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'm not actually "strongly against" psychedelics. People can take all of the psychedelics that they want. I hope they are careful. What I'm strongly against is using dubious quacky science and the fact that some medical trials claim success at treating depression with them to argue that the mental states they induce are comparable to the concentrations of the Āryan Saints. I'm in favour of a realistic view of what they are doing to/with your body and mind.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:28 am
Your framework is wrong. Protoconsciousness doesn't 'float' away, the universe itself exists within this fathom long body and some dimension of mind which is liberated.
The problem being that "protoconsciousness", which really is just Ātman/Brahman, Jiva or Puruṣa by a different name isn't recognised by the Buddha. You seem to identify it with the citta, but citta depends upon name and form. No name and form, no citta. It's not exactly the pre-existing and ever present consciousness you believe in. Now, if you want to believe in that you can. The Buddha was fine with other people disagreeing with him. What he didn't like however was people misrepresenting what he said. That is what you are doing, when you argue that the Buddha taught that there was some kind of eternal consciousness thingy.
How am I 'off topic'? I am also not arguing for or against the widespread use of psychedelics amongst meditators.
There is no mention of psychedelics in the canon, hence this discussion which involves insights from psychedelic experiences.
The OP wanted to know the orthodox position. Theravāda doesn't agree with recreational drug use.
It's no coincidence as I see it that both yourself and Coemgenu have extensive prior drug use with a variety of substances and are so strongly against them or the idea that certain substances can play a beneficial role.
I get that, and I don't want to damage that mentality if it maybe risks you relapsing since you used and class all drugs together recreationally.

However many of us are not in that position and can use psychedelics judiciously and integrate them with the work of meditative insight.
Top
In the context of this thread I'm not opposed to them because of past experiences. In the context of this thread the orthodox position is that they shouldn't be used. Outside of this thread I still wouldn't agree about using them, because that isn't how you practice the NEFP.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:37 am What I'm strongly against is using dubious quacky science and the fact that some medical trials claim success at treating depression with them to argue that the mental states they induce are comparable to the concentrations of the Āryan Saints. I'm in favour of a realistic view of what they are doing to your body and mind.
It's no doubt unpleasant to think that some simpleton in his house or on a field somewhere with dubious virtue could touch a supernormal attainment that a meditator may take years if ever to attain.

However if we look more closely I don't think there is an issue.

Firstly the meditator is gradually eliminating defilements which is the work of the path and leads to long-term success. This doesn't happen with a peak experience with LSD although it can lead to insights but the long work still has to be done. So there is no shortcut and it's doesn't undercut the meditative path. It could even be a hindrance since a lot of ego driven people in the psychedlic community come to this false conclusion so this needs to be corrected.

Secondly we have to look at phenomenological analysis of these reports and compare them from mystics or advanced meditators to see if there are any parallels. If we find there there appear to be then it is what it is.
Whether it is some kind of advanced illusion or a glimpse of the real thing then becomes the issue, and if so how.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:39 am The problem being that "protoconsciousness", which really is just Ātman/Brahman, Jiva or Puruṣa by a different name isn't recognised by the Buddha. You seem to identify it with the citta, but citta depends upon name and form. No name and form, no citta. It's not exactly the pre-existing and ever present consciousness you believe in. Now, if you want to believe in that you can. The Buddha was fine with other people disagreeing with him. What he didn't like however was people misrepresenting what he said. That is what you are doing, when you argue that the Buddha taught that there was some kind of eternal consciousness thingy.
The problem is your opinion requires heavy editing of the Pali canon and dismissing of passages which call nibbana consciousness without surface or feature (protoconsciousness).
If you want to selectively edit the canon into supporting your views then fine but it's not Nikaya Buddhism even if it may be aligned with some later commentaries.

Protoconsciousness is also not a 'thing' and neither is it 'God/Brahman' and neither does it need an atman.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:39 am The OP wanted to know the orthodox position. Theravāda doesn't agree with recreational drug use.


In the context of this thread I'm not opposed to them because of past experiences. In the context of this thread the orthodox position is that they shouldn't be used. Outside of this thread I still wouldn't agree about using them, because that isn't how you practice the NEFP.
Again you have no basis for this, merely your opinion. The Pali Canon is basically silent on the subject of psychedelics.

You have to show that the Pali Canon

- comments on psychedelics (they don't)
- equates alcohol and similar intoxicants with psychedelics (they don't)

You have to also show that

- modern research equates alcohol and narcotics with psychedelics by any variables (they don't)
- that meditators have not used psychedelics effectively with no ill effects (they have)
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:48 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:37 am What I'm strongly against is using dubious quacky science and the fact that some medical trials claim success at treating depression with them to argue that the mental states they induce are comparable to the concentrations of the Āryan Saints. I'm in favour of a realistic view of what they are doing to your body and mind.
It's no doubt unpleasant to think that some simpleton in his house or on a field somewhere with dubious virtue could touch a supernormal attainment that a meditator may take years if ever to attain.
One with dubious virtue cannot touch the dhyānas at all, simpleton or not, in field or house. A simpleton, through his deep roots of merit and virtue, might touch them without ever hearing of the Buddha at all, but not through ingesting a special vine.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:04 am
If you want to selectively edit the canon into supporting your views then fine but it's not Nikaya Buddhism even if it may be aligned with some later commentaries.
When you talk of Nikāya Buddhism you are talking about Theravāda here, since the only other early Buddhist school which used the word is now extinct (a sub-sect of the Mahāsāṃghika that I can't recall at the moment). If however by Nikāya Buddhism you meant early Buddhism then none of them believed in a proto-consciousness, based on what we know. I'm also bemused as to why you point to viññāṇa as the basis for this eternal consciousness thingy, when you spend so much time arguing that it is the citta? Which is it? Citta or viññāṇa? Either way, both are said to be dependently originated. Neither are eternally existing substances in the Dhamma. For that you have to look to the substance metaphysics of Jainism et al.
Protoconsciousness is also not a 'thing' and neither is it 'God/Brahman' and neither does it need an atman.
Is it nothing, a no-thing?
Again you have no basis for this, merely your opinion. The Pali Canon is basically silent on the subject of psychedelics.

You have to show that the Pali Canon

- comments on psychedelics (they don't)
- equates alcohol and similar intoxicants with psychedelics (they don't)
The texts are also silent on cocaine. Therefore, I can take cocaine. This is of course a terrible argument. The texts talk of alcohol, or alcohol and intoxicants, which are the basis for losing appamāda. So, just because something isn't directly mentioned doesn't then mean it is allowable. What matters is in how it effects one's wholesome energy, mindfulness and clear comprehension. As I've argued before, if you were truly developing those things you wouldn't be taking acid in the first place.
You have to also show that

- modern research equates alcohol and narcotics with psychedelics by any variables (they don't)
- that meditators have not used psychedelics effectively with no ill effects (they have)
I have to do no such thing. Such things are irrelevant to if the Buddha's teachings allow for the consumption of acid.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:36 am The texts are also silent on cocaine. Therefore, I can take cocaine. This is of course a terrible argument. The texts talk of alcohol, or alcohol and intoxicants, which are the basis for losing appamāda. So, just because something isn't directly mentioned doesn't then mean it is allowable.
And yet no one is arguing that cocaine can be part of the path, or that it shouldn't be classed as an intoxicant like alcohol.
Like I said, you have no basis in the Canon for your opinions either directly or by extension, which is why you are forced to appeal to weak strawman arguments involving obviously prohibited narcotics. The most you can say is that the Pali Canon is indeterminate on the issue of psychedelics by it's silence.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:36 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:04 am
You have to show that the Pali Canon

- comments on psychedelics (they don't)
- equates alcohol and similar intoxicants with psychedelics (they don't)
I have to do no such thing. Such things are irrelevant to if the Buddha's teachings allow for the consumption of acid.
Indeed, since you are merely espousing your personal opinion which has no support from modern research or modern substance classifications, and neither has any direct or implied support from the canon, you are free to say whatever you want without any further reference to the questions I asked.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:36 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:04 am
If you want to selectively edit the canon into supporting your views then fine but it's not Nikaya Buddhism even if it may be aligned with some later commentaries.
When you talk of Nikāya Buddhism you are talking about Theravāda here, since the only other early Buddhist school which used the word is now extinct (a sub-sect of the Mahāsāṃghika that I can't recall at the moment). If however by Nikāya Buddhism you meant early Buddhism then none of them believed in a proto-consciousness, based on what we know. I'm also bemused as to why you point to viññāṇa as the basis for this eternal consciousness thingy, when you spend so much time arguing that it is the citta? Which is it? Citta or viññāṇa? Either way, both are said to be dependently originated. Neither are eternally existing substances in the Dhamma. For that you have to look to the substance metaphysics of Jainism et al.
Protoconsciousness is also not a 'thing' and neither is it 'God/Brahman' and neither does it need an atman.
Is it nothing, a no-thing?
I'm not going to get further into this off topic discussion on the nature of the Buddha's description of Nibbana as consciousness without surface. If you want to continue it we can do so on this thread

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41529
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:48 am
And yet no one is arguing that cocaine can be part of the path, or that it shouldn't be classed as an intoxicant like alcohol.
The point was that someone using your logic could.

Like I said, you have no basis in the Canon for your opinions either directly or by extension, which is why you are forced to appeal to weak strawman arguments involving obviously prohibited narcotics. The most you can say is that the Pali Canon is indeterminate on the issue of psychedelics by it's silence.
It’s not indeterminate. The question is if ingesting said substances leads to a diminishing of energy, mindfulness and clear comprehension. The answer is yes. Based on the mind and the idea of taking acid, mind consciousness arises. The meeting of the 3 is contact. With contact as a condition, feeling. Sense restraint stops there. It doesn’t move onto intending towards and ingesting the acid.
Indeed, since you are merely espousing your personal opinion which has no support from modern research or modern substance classifications, and neither has any direct or implied support from the canon, you are free to say whatever you want without any further reference to the questions I asked.
I’m not interested in what science has to say on the Dhamma here. I’m interested in what the Buddha taught, based on the textual evidence and historical practices. Would the Buddha approve of monks taking acid? No, because it not only has nothing to do with the NEFP but also it gets in the way of it. Who knows, someone taking acid might even make the mistake in taking their rather shallow experiences for Jhana or even as a glimpse of Nibbana.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:35 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:48 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:37 am What I'm strongly against is using dubious quacky science and the fact that some medical trials claim success at treating depression with them to argue that the mental states they induce are comparable to the concentrations of the Āryan Saints. I'm in favour of a realistic view of what they are doing to your body and mind.
It's no doubt unpleasant to think that some simpleton in his house or on a field somewhere with dubious virtue could touch a supernormal attainment that a meditator may take years if ever to attain.
One with dubious virtue cannot touch the dhyānas at all, simpleton or not, in field or house. A simpleton, through his deep roots of merit and virtue, might touch them without ever hearing of the Buddha at all, but not through ingesting a special vine.
The jhanas require only temporary suppression of the hindrances.
So if it is a jhana-like state this would perhaps be possible even if good enough virtue was lacking in the longer term.
However virtue is required for long term uprooting of defilements which is where many psychedelic users who do not practice the path fall short compared with dhamma farers.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by justindesilva »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:05 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:35 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:48 am

It's no doubt unpleasant to think that some simpleton in his house or on a field somewhere with dubious virtue could touch a supernormal attainment that a meditator may take years if ever to attain.
One with dubious virtue cannot touch the dhyānas at all, simpleton or not, in field or house. A simpleton, through his deep roots of merit and virtue, might touch them without ever hearing of the Buddha at all, but not through ingesting a special vine.
The jhanas require only temporary suppression of the hindrances.
So if it is a jhana-like state this would perhaps be possible even if good enough virtue was lacking in the longer term.
However virtue is required for long term uprooting of defilements which is where many psychedelic users who do not practice the path fall short compared with dhamma farers.
The chemicals and drugs used to treat psychedelics are often successful only temporarily. It depends on the period of sickness too. Further once a psychedelic has been treated , the patient has to be moved to a new environment to keep away from former imaginations. (Sabbasawasutta can explalin this ,I believe)
Coming to the post , attaining jhana is different while to achieve best results one can reach from jhana one to higher levels and wirk backwards too. Unlike in psychedelic treatments.
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:01 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:48 am
And yet no one is arguing that cocaine can be part of the path, or that it shouldn't be classed as an intoxicant like alcohol.
The point was that someone using your logic could.
No they couldn't, and they don't.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:01 am The question is if ingesting said substances leads to a diminishing of energy, mindfulness and clear comprehension. The answer is yes.
No, the answer is a resounding no. Clearly you have never used psychedelics or used them meditatively to come to that view. The opposite can be the case.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:01 am I’m not interested in what science has to say on the Dhamma here. I’m interested in what the Buddha taught, based on the textual evidence and historical practices. Would the Buddha approve of monks taking acid? No, because it not only has nothing to do with the NEFP but also it gets in the way of it. Who knows, someone taking acid might even make the mistake in taking their rather shallow experiences for Jhana or even as a glimpse of Nibbana.
The Dhamma is not found in books. It is to be personally experienced.

Would the Buddha approve monks taking LSD? Considering it was only discovered in the 20th century not possible but there were similar substances around.

I doubt he would openly endorse them as they could harm some if used unwisely.
If a layperson was using them in conjunction with disciplined meditation (not as a substitute), my opinion is he would evaluate if they were leading to a strengthening of their practice and attenuation of defilements, and if so would advise accordingly. If they were leading to the reverse he would tell them to stop.

It's possible however that yes there would be a blanket prohibition amongst the monastics due to them being a standard and the associations with substance use could be damaging. Which is why though I am certain they can be of benefit I would not become a monastic due to the ambiguity and silence on this issue of their use.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:37 am
No they couldn't, and they don't.
If the argument is that one can use x because the Buddha didn't directly mention it in the texts nor through tradition then yes, I can justify using cocaine.
No, the answer is a resounding no. Clearly you have never used psychedelics or used them meditatively to come to that view. The opposite can be the case.
You will have to define sati-sampajañña.
The Dhamma is not found in books. It is to be personally experienced.
Yes, but that doesn't mean there is no place for formal learning. If there is no formal learning then no one would have any clue what the Dhamma meant conceptually. People would just be making up their own spirituality and calling it Buddhadhamma.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is the Orthodox Theravada position on alcohol, narcotics, psychedelics?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:05 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:37 am
No they couldn't, and they don't.
If the argument is that one can use x because the Buddha didn't directly mention it in the texts nor through tradition then yes, I can justify using cocaine.
Luckily that's not the argument then since the Buddha's teachings rely on common sense and extension of principle. By your method there would be 2027 precepts by now not 227 for monks.

The argument is - since alcohol and intoxicants which cause heedlessness are prohibited, should other substances be prohibited?

The answer for cocaine and narcotics is - yes, obviously

For psychedelics such as LSD - it depends how they are used. If used meditatively, then no.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:05 pm
No, the answer is a resounding no. Clearly you have never used psychedelics or used them meditatively to come to that view. The opposite can be the case.
You will have to define sati-sampajañña.
However you define it, it can improve with psychedelics if used rightly. Again I'm not getting side tracked into technicalities of definition here.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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