anicca

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Here is a, hopefully faithful, summary of page one
Sarath : Generally monks contemplate on dead bodies to practice the repulsiveness (Asubha) of the body to detach from attachment.
Buddha taught the impermanence (Anicca), unsatisfaction (Dukkha) and the impersonal nature (Anatta) of the five clinging aggregate.
It is more about the mind.

pegembara : The person who sees, hears, smells, tastes, feels, and thinks is impermanent(anicca).
The "self" is Anicca.
“If anyone were to say, ‘The eye is the self,’ that wouldn’t be tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that ‘My self arises & falls away.’ etc

mjaviem : I think it's about seeing the conditioned nature of everything. This leads to see impermanence with certainty. It's not about to wait for things to decompose or vanish but to see how they depend on conditions.

justindesilva : Conditioned means to be transformed for conservation of energy, and is anicca. An example of impermanence being apo, tejo, vayo , patavi getting mutually transformed,.
Energy is never lost, but conditioned to be transformed in to another . Anicca hence is this permanent transformation from one to another happening permanently.

cappuccino : sunnat wrote : so, how to perceive Anicca?
like an endless parade……

Bundokji posted a construction site video timelapse

justindesilva : like an endless parade……
In that endless path of anicca lord budda was only concerned with dukka and anatta.
Dukka as for me is manifestation of energy felt by beings and anatta is the selfless nature of ongoing reactions as reactions of energy. As long as we are bound with upadana , a mind constituent, we will undergo the feeling of such manifestation.

mjaviem : Conditioned in this context means that one thing is correlated to another. When this happen this other thing happens too. When this is no more that is no more.
To be transformed for energy conservation sounds like physics, a different dhamma not taught by the Buddha.
Anicca means impermanent, fully ending without remainder. We can see change as an overview but things don't change they only end. We see them changing but it's our own delusion from our self-making. We don't accept they ended so we say they changed and deep down they are still there as we are confused.

justindesilva : Fully ending without remaineder is annihilation. Anicca is not annihilation either.

mjaviem : In this case, what would be annihilated in your view?

justindesilva : As preached by rev. Dr. Punnaji Thero, anicca is what comes and goes and called impermanent. To be fair vedana, sanna, which arises and passes can be called annihilated. Yet rupa or form which arises and passes cannot be called annihilated as rupa is formed of four maha butas which are apo, tejo, vayo, patavi whereas they are mutually interdependant. Nama rupa being a conditioned in paticca samuppada is a conditioned stage. Vingnana paccaya nama rupa. What would happen to nama without rupa or rupa without nama, and how can we apply annihilation here.?


A very interesting discussion.
I'm not sure how to comment. Partly because I don't understand some. I don't want to get into any kind of judgements so I'll proceed to post how I understand it : 'how to perceive anicca'
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Rather than posting a full sutta here’s a link
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
- Loka Sutta SN 35

Referring to the six sense doors (eye ear nose tongue body intellect) , their respective objects (forms sounds aromas tastes tangible-sensations ideas) their respective consciousness’, contacts and “…whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the [sense-doors]— experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain [feelings,sensations]— that too disintegrates.”
“ Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world
.' “

And in the Chachakka Sutta MN 148 there is this:
The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known*. The six external media should be known*. The six classes of consciousness should be known*. The six classes of contact should be known*. The six classes of feeling should be known*. The six classes of craving should be known*.“

*knowing, understanding, contemplating etc (imho) in the way Buddha means is what is arrived at by meditating, by direct personal experience (otherwise it is an action of the intellect, mere ‘book learning’, which does not result in True Knowledge or Wisdom in the Buddhist sense. In fact it is really a sophisticated kind of ignorance that may at best inspire and guide but until practicing directly does not liberate)

And because these six sets of six are all anicca, they are not self. The World is not self. The World is anicca.

For a clue as to where to ‘watch’ anicca, to perceive it, to see and understand it and ‘let go’:

“… That a person — without abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, without abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, without uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, without abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing isn't possible. …”

and

“… That a person — through abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing is possible. ...“


So. It is sense impressions [feelings arising at the sense doors] that are to be perceived as anicca.

For many it proves easiest to develop awareness of feelings at the body base. The continuous awareness of the continual flux, flow, stream of sensations that continually rises and passes away.

Like sitting by a flowing river watching it continually change without being able to change it and without judging it.
justindesilva
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Post by justindesilva »

sunnat wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:10 am Here is a, hopefully faithful, summary of page one
It is more about the mind.
justindesilva : like an endless parade……
In that endless path of anicca lord budda was only concerned with dukka and anatta.
Dukka as for me is manifestation of energy felt by beings and anatta is the selfless nature of ongoing reactions as reactions of energy. As long as we are bound with upadana , a mind constituent, we will undergo the feeling of such manifestation.

mjaviem : Conditioned in this context means that one thing is correlated to another. When this happen this other thing happens too. When this is no more that is no more.
To be transformed for energy conservation sounds like physics, a different dhamma not taught by the Buddha.
Anicca means impermanent, fully ending without remainder. We can see change as an overview but things don't change they only end. We see them changing but it's our own delusion from our self-making. We don't accept they ended so we say they changed and deep down they are still there as we are confused.

justindesilva : Fully ending without remaineder is annihilation. Anicca is not annihilation either.

mjaviem : In this case, what would be annihilated in your view?

justindesilva : As preached by rev. Dr. Punnaji Thero, anicca is what comes and goes and called impermanent. To be fair vedana, sanna, which arises and passes can be called annihilated. Yet rupa or form which arises and passes cannot be called annihilated as rupa is formed of four maha butas which are apo, tejo, vayo, patavi whereas they are mutually interdependant. Nama rupa being a conditioned in paticca samuppada is a conditioned stage. Vingnana paccaya nama rupa. What would happen to nama without rupa or rupa without nama, and how can we apply annihilation here.?


A very interesting discussion.
I'm not sure how to comment. Partly because I don't understand some. I don't want to get into any kind of judgements so I'll proceed to post how I understand it : 'how to perceive anicca'
And we being worldly prutugjana beings try to analyse anicca on illusioned concepts. This is why we cannot analyse anicca. However the best way to have an insight in to anicca and form pragna is to be absorbed in satara satipattana sutta , with kayanupassana,dammanupassana, vedananupassana , and kayanupassana.
These vipassana meditations will at least take ones mind away away from the worldly affairs on intellectual levels in to salayatana, giving light to anicca sangna.
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mjaviem
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Post by mjaviem »

sunnat wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:18 am ... sophisticated kind of ignorance that may at best inspire and guide but until practicing directly does not liberate)...
I agree. I think it's part of developing right view.
sunnat wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:18 am ...

So. It is sense impressions [feelings arising at the sense doors] that are to be perceived as anicca.

For many it proves easiest to develop awareness of feelings at the body base. The continuous awareness of the continual flux, flow, stream of sensations that continually rises and passes away.

Like sitting by a flowing river watching it continually change without being able to change it and without judging it.
Why only feelings?
SN 22.102 Bodhi wrote: ...
“And how, bhikkhus, is the perception of impermanence developed and cultivated so that it eliminates all sensual lust, eliminates all lust for existence, eliminates all ignorance, and uproots all conceit ‘I am’? ‘Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away; such is feeling … such is perception … such are volitional formations … such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away’: that is how the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated so that it eliminates all sensual lust, eliminates all lust for existence, eliminates all ignorance, and uproots all conceit ‘I am.’”
I'm at stage one (or even zero): Trying to understand what is form, what is feeling, what is perception, what are formations, and what is sense consciousness.

For example, I think feelings are that which affects us in a pleasant or unpleasant manner or in a way we can't be sure whether it is affecting us pleasantly or unpleasantly. I think feelings are this effecting though then I can't tell apart an unpleasant feeling from suffering or a pleasant feeling from happiness. or a neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant feeling from suffering due to confusion.

If we happen to notice feelings and study them I think we can eventually see how they appear and after a while go away if we are mindful enough. The wait seems reasonable. But what about form? We can see and touch a wall in a room and it won't go away soon. We need to wait and come back many years later to see how it changed. And what about its origin? We have missed it because we weren't there.
SN 22.5 Bodhi wrote:... “And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of form? What is the origin of feeling? What is the origin of perception? What is the origin of volitional formations? What is the origin of consciousness?

“Here, bhikkhus, one seeks delight, one welcomes, one remains holding. And what is it that one seeks delight in, what does one welcome, to what does one remain holding? One seeks delight in form, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As a consequence of this, delight arises. Delight in form is clinging. With one’s clinging as condition, existence comes to be; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

“One seeks delight in feeling … in perception … in volitional formations … in consciousness, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As a consequence of this, delight arises…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

“This, bhikkhus, is the origin of form; this is the origin of feeling; this is the origin of perception; this is the origin of volitional formations; this is the origin of consciousness.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of form? What is the passing away of feeling? What is the passing away of perception? What is the passing away of volitional formations? What is the passing away of consciousness?

“Here, bhikkhus, one does not seek delight, one does not welcome, one does not remain holding. And what is it that one does not seek delight in? What doesn’t one welcome? To what doesn’t one remain holding? One does not seek delight in form, does not welcome it, does not remain holding to it. As a consequence of this, delight in form ceases. With the cessation of delight comes cessation of clinging; with cessation of clinging, cessation of existence…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

“One does not seek delight in feeling … … in perception … in volitional formations … in consciousness, does not welcome it, does not remain holding to it. As a consequence of this, delight in consciousness ceases…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

“This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of form; this is the passing away of feeling; this is the passing away of perception; this is the passing away of volitional formations; this is the passing away of consciousness.”
It seems as soon as we seek, welcome, and remain holding to delight in the aggregates subject to clinging, delight arises as a consequence and also clinging in the aggregates subject to clinging, existence, birth, aging-and-death, and suffering originate. And as soon as we don't seek, welcome, and remain holding to delight in the aggregates subject to clinging, delight, clinging in the aggregates subject to clinging, existence, birth, aging-and-death, and suffering, they all pass away. It seems such is the origin and the passing away of the world.

So it seems we don't have to wait to see how things end. We only need to see how things are conditioned and subject to destruction.
SN 22.21 Bodhi wrote:... ‘cessation, cessation.’ Through the cessation of what things is cessation spoken of?”

“Form, Ānanda, is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, to vanishing, to fading away, to cessation. Through its cessation, cessation is spoken of.

“Feeling is impermanent … Perception is impermanent … Volitional formations are impermanent … … Consciousness is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, to vanishing, to fading away, to cessation. Through its cessation, cessation is spoken of.

“It is through the cessation of these things, Ānanda, that cessation is spoken of.”
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Feelings :

Often the word feeling is used to describe emotions.

A feeling of this type might be passion. When it arises it is usually accompanied with physical phenomena like heat. The breath changes. There may be an awareness of the sensation of air brushing against the area around the nose. Various muscles might tense up in the face and elsewhere. This can be felt.

So, a more inclusive meaning of feelings may be sensations or sense impressions, remembering that ideas, imaginations, confusions etc are mind 'feelings' or sense impressions arising at the mind sense door.

There are gross sensations like pain from a broken rib or subtle like gently moving the fingertips over a smooth surface or very subtle ones that one is usually ignorant of like the physical phenomena that has caused one to shift ones seat position which one may only be aware of having happened after the fact, if at all.

Anyway having clarified to some extent the meaning of 'feeling' as sensation.,


Why feelings? :

In the Chachakka Sutta, The Blessed One says it is impossible for Wisdom to arise if one has not abandoned the underlying tendencies to lust for pleasant feelings, and abandoned the tendency to aversion for unpleasant feelings and abandoned the tendency to ignore neutral feelings.

If one does not abandon these underlying tendencies craving, clinging, and so on, follow.
If one does abandon these underlying tendencies the path to the goal appears.

So, first one must train to be aware of feelings (as they are in the present).

This is where meditation is crucial. By bringing a calm focused mind (non-judgemental) (from mindfulness of breath) to bear on the flux of sensations at contact (vedananupassana, cittanupassana, dhammanupassana or : Vipassana) one gradually becomes empty, though the emptying can be a chaotic, noisy process depending on how much one has nurtured the tendency to lust, hate and ignore in the past and dependent on how faithfully one avoids creating new noise or remorse by not neglecting sila.
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mjaviem
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sunnat wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:03 am Feelings :

Often the word feeling is used to describe emotions.

A feeling of this type might be passion. When it arises it is usually accompanied with physical phenomena like heat. The breath changes. There may be an awareness of the sensation of air brushing against the area around the nose. Various muscles might tense up in the face and elsewhere. This can be felt.

So, a more inclusive meaning of feelings may be sensations or sense impressions, remembering that ideas, imaginations, confusions etc are mind 'feelings' or sense impressions arising at the mind sense door.

There are gross sensations like pain from a broken rib or subtle like gently moving the fingertips over a smooth surface or very subtle ones that one is usually ignorant of like the physical phenomena that has caused one to shift ones seat position which one may only be aware of having happened after the fact, if at all.

...
As far as I can understand, emotions are volitional formations, just like thoughts are. Thoughts and emotions are our mental life. This is the sankhara aggregate. Emotions are not the feelings aggregate, they are in a different one. They both originate from contact...
SN 22.82 Bodhi wrote: ...
“What is the cause and condition, venerable sir, for the manifestation of the form aggregate? What is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate?… for the manifestation of the perception aggregate?… for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate?… for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate?”

“The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate. Name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.”
...
... but are not the same, IMO.

EDIT: I would say feelings lead to craving while emotions do not.
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Post by sunnat »

Lord Buddha said that things like thoughts are mind feelings.
See MN 148
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Post by mjaviem »

sunnat wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:44 pm Lord Buddha said that things like thoughts are mind feelings.
See MN 148
There it says contact is the condition for feeling. I don't read there that thoughts are a kind of feeling
... Dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there is feeling; ...
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Post by sunnat »

right. :anjali: Mind objects. Thoughts etc are phenomena with clear sensations that are either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. They (thoughts and feelings) are constantly changing and so not-self. By training to experience them as constantly changing phenomena one cultivates the path.
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sunnat wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:02 am right. :anjali: Mind objects. Thoughts etc are phenomena with clear sensations that are either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. They (thoughts and feelings) are constantly changing and so not-self. By training to experience them as constantly changing phenomena one cultivates the path.
Ok, back in agreement then.
sunnat wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:30 am ... yes, so how to perceive anicca?...
I think contemplating a river of thougths, emotions and feelings and its "continually change without being able to change it and without judging it." may be beneficial but the breakthrough is to find the certainty beyond any doubt that all formations and all feeling are impermanent. Once we are tired of not finding anything steady we will still harbor doubts about that perhaps there is something stable yet to come and where to cling. So the knowledge of anicca comes IMO not by simply seeing the arising and passing away of phenomena but seeing how they inevitably depend on something else. It is to understand that all is conditioned and thus impermanent. Seeing anicca IMO is seeing the subjection to an unfailing passing away. No need to wait to see the end, we see that it must end. So it's not enough to see the river flowing, if we want to see anicca we need to see idappaccayatā.
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sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Ok. I suggest Anicca can be directly experienced without having any certainty or any knowledge about ideas of cause and effect and that a certainty arises as a consequence of that experience. Therefore it is simply a matter of coming to recognise the nature, the moment to moment manifestation, of the anicca to be perceived and to settle the awareness on that continually changing phenomenon.

iow the path reveals itself by walking it as opposed to thinking about it
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Post by justindesilva »

sunnat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:10 am Ok. I suggest Anicca can be directly experienced without having any certainty or any knowledge about ideas of cause and effect and that a certainty arises as a consequence of that experience. Therefore it is simply a matter of coming to recognise the nature, the moment to moment manifestation, of the anicca to be perceived and to settle the awareness on that continually changing phenomenon.

iow the path reveals itself by walking it as opposed to thinking about it
The smooth skin of a teenager will not be retained at old ages is a result of impermanence. So is the voice and other human appearances. What more needed to explain impermanence . Why do women do facials each morning?
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Post by sunnat »

There is this posted in Favourite Dhamma Quotes:

MN131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta, 'A Single Excellent Night'(Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, translated by the Ven. Bhikkhus Naa.namoli and Bodhi):

"Let not a person revive the past
Or on the future build his hopes;
For the past has been left behind
And the future has not been reached.

Instead with insight let him see
Each presently arisen state;
Let him know that and be sure of it,
Invincibly, unshakeably.
Today the effort must be made;
Tomorrow Death may come, who knows?

No bargain with Mortality
Can keep him and his hordes away,
But one who dwells thus ardently,
Relentlessly, by day, by night -
It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said,
Who has had a single excellent night."
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Re: anicca

Post by MySpace »

Think of anything dearest to you. It can be your property, your bank account, your car, your family, your friends, your career, your social status etc etc. Imagine if you wake up tomorrow and they are gone forever. You will never have them back again. How would you feel? Happy or sad? Satisfactory or unsatisfactory? Are those things dearest to you an asset, a source of happiness or a liability to suffering?

Anicca can be contemplated without mysticism.
Last edited by MySpace on Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

sunnat wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:23 am There is this posted in Favourite Dhamma Quotes:

MN131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta, 'A Single Excellent Night'(Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, translated by the Ven. Bhikkhus Naa.namoli and Bodhi):

"Let not a person revive the past
Or on the future build his hopes;
For the past has been left behind
And the future has not been reached.

Instead with insight let him see
Each presently arisen state;
Let him know that and be sure of it,
Invincibly, unshakeably.
Today the effort must be made;
Tomorrow Death may come, who knows?

No bargain with Mortality
Can keep him and his hordes away,
But one who dwells thus ardently,
Relentlessly, by day, by night -
It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said,
Who has had a single excellent night."


dwell ardently, relentlessly, by day, by night - [continuously] in the present moment, (not in the past or future) and with insight see ‘Each presently arisen state’ and know it and be sure of it. In other words: perceiva anicca in every present moment. … but how? what is the nature of this anicca in each present moment.
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