Citta is dependently originated

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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:08 am But it's not so validly applied. Rebirth necessarily involves death, unless you believe in some stupid version of it, such as Sati the fisherman's son's version of it, which is to say "unless you are believing in an eternal undying citta."
More condescension and backhanded statements. I just have to acknowledge you have a more adult version that is in absentia today, pushed away by being ruffled earlier it seems.

Regardless, no I don't believe in the atman doctrine of a permanent soul or citta.
I do know that we are participating in some kind of field of consciousness that can't die, and the Buddha's teaching comes closest to how to explain and work with this.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:43 am I know you place your drug use on a high pedestal. It seems you consider yourself part of a continuity of similarly-stoned sages going back in time as well.
No, I'm just aware of the history which probably saved me falling so far into quagmire of recreational drug use you fell into. Hence I can appreciate their symbiosis with meditation and their veneration in various esoteric systems.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:43 am I have progressed much since my early 20s and late teens.
I'm glad. If you can stop the tendency to regress towards adolescent thinking and insulting from time to time when feeling ruffled, you will have progressed even more.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:36 amI just have to acknowledge you have a more adult version that is in absentia today, pushed away by being ruffled earlier it seems.
My apparent age is in the eye of your beholder. When we agree, you think me to be speaking from a "more adult version" of myself. When we disagree, you think me "ruffled."
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:36 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:43 amI know you place your drug use on a high pedestal. It seems you consider yourself part of a continuity of similarly-stoned sages going back in time as well.
No, I'm just aware of the history which probably saved me falling so far into quagmire of recreational drug use you fell into. Hence I can appreciate their symbiosis with meditation and their veneration in various esoteric systems.
You defend your current drug use via the excuse of "I'm not addicted." I can similarly, if I choose to, defend my past drug use by voicing the truth that I have never been addicted to a hard drug. I did have a nasty cigarette habit for a while. I don't choose to defend my past drug use, however.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:39 am You defend your current drug use via the excuse of "I'm not addicted." I can similarly, if I choose to, defend my past drug use by voicing the truth that I have never been addicted to a hard drug. I did have a nasty cigarette habit for a while. I don't choose to defend my past drug use, however.
I don't class psychedelics as simply 'drugs', and your comparing them to tobacco or hard drugs as though they all clump shows how ridiculous your arguments are.

I use them because there are benefits, and I don't place texts above my experience, especially when those texts are silent on their use and our modern understanding does not class them with alcohol.

Again this is off topic though so no need to keep raising the issue.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Mudryj
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Mudryj »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:02 am In this case perception coincides with the unconditioned. Perception is not possible without mind. Therefore, in this case mind is unconditioned. Ie. mind here is not conditioned by name and form. In cessation there is no name and form. But there is awareness and perception. There is mind.
Why do you think so? It's not written there. It says that the mind is focused on the dhamma of nibbana, that is, cessation. Termination is unconditional and permanent. Try to break the cessation of a broken cup - you won't succeed, it can't even be touched or caught. Nowhere in this sutta is there a word that the mind becomes unconditioned or that it does not rely on name and form. Only that the object of perception becomes nibbana and the object of perception ceases to be the whole world. Think about this. When we focus on rupa jhana, the quality of rupa-loka becomes the object of our contemplation and the quality of kama-loka ceases to be the object of perception. But our mind does not become completely different, going beyond kama-loka. It's just that his field of perception and internal states have changed, that's all.
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Ontheway »

The title is correct. Citta is dependently originated.

Assutavāsutta
...But that which is called ‘mind’ (Citta) or ‘sentience’(Mano) or ‘consciousness’ (Viññāṇa) arises as one thing and ceases as another all day and all night. It’s like a monkey moving through the forest. It grabs hold of one branch, lets it go, and grabs another; then it lets that go and grabs yet another. In the same way, that which is called ‘mind’ or ‘sentience’ or ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another all day and all night.

In this case, a learned noble disciple carefully and properly attends to dependent origination itself: ‘When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises. When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases.

Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Sutta
“Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many ways consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness? But you, misguided man, have misrepresented us by your wrong grasp and injured yourself and stored up much demerit; for this will lead to your harm and suffering for a long time.”
"Citta", "Mano", or "Viññāṇa" is not a self sustained aspect of the "Nāma", it is dependent originated and ceases accordingly. By seeing this way, Sakkaya-Ditthi can be abandoned. Since "Citta", "Mano", or "Viññāṇa" is dependent originated and not standalone transmigrating by itself, then Sassataditthi is avoided. And it is dependent originated, then Ucchedaditthi is rejected too since "Citta", "Mano", or "Viññāṇa" will arise if the conditions that favour its arising persist.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Pondera
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Pondera »

Mudryj wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:13 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:02 am In this case perception coincides with the unconditioned. Perception is not possible without mind. Therefore, in this case mind is unconditioned. Ie. mind here is not conditioned by name and form. In cessation there is no name and form. But there is awareness and perception. There is mind.
Why do you think so? It's not written there. It says that the mind is focused on the dhamma of nibbana, that is, cessation. Termination is unconditional and permanent. Try to break the cessation of a broken cup - you won't succeed, it can't even be touched or caught. Nowhere in this sutta is there a word that the mind becomes unconditioned or that it does not rely on name and form. Only that the object of perception becomes nibbana and the object of perception ceases to be the whole world. Think about this. When we focus on rupa jhana, the quality of rupa-loka becomes the object of our contemplation and the quality of kama-loka ceases to be the object of perception. But our mind does not become completely different, going beyond kama-loka. It's just that his field of perception and internal states have changed, that's all.
Then what is “final knowledge”? Explain the knowledge that accompanies Nibanna without referring to a mind of some kind.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Pondera
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:29 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:19 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:10 am

How is it possible for there to be liberation if mind exists? If mind exists, it either has always existed or is generated. If it has always existed then it cannot become liberated. If it is generated from causes then it arises from nothing, but nothing cannot be said to exist. Existence and non-existence therefore cannot be established in relation to mind, citta or viññāṇa. All that can be known are the words, the concepts, and concepts cannot be said to really exist or not exist.
I’m not arguing that mind exists. I’m not arguing that liberation exists.

I am putting out the notion that liberation is an unconditioned dhamma and that it is known and that because it is known (in an unconditioned coincidence) there must be a mind that allows for this knowledge. Knowledge cannot happen without awareness. It cannot be done while unconscious.
Then, in agreement with the Prajñāpāramitā, conventionally there is a mind which knows liberation. Just like how conventionally the Buddha ate food, or said "I am hot". Ultimately, at the awakened point of view, there are no notions of existence, non-existence, mind, arising, ceasing or liberation.
I don’t agree with Prajnaparamita. As Coemegu put it so succinctly - I wasted my time with it and learned nothing (do you get the joke? On a conventional level there’s nothing worth learning from that Trollope of a text. On a more ultimate level the only thing you can learn from that text is “nothing”) funny, right?

Have you migrated into Mahayana then, Ceiweser? Sutta pitaka not good enough? I made the same mistake as a young man. Prayed to Avalokitesvara for protection. Thought I must be a Bodhisattva. Why? Of course because I was reading Prajnaparamita. The text told me I was important if I had gotten my hands on a copy.

Oh. So much delusion.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Mudryj
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Mudryj »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:55 am
Mudryj wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:13 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:02 am In this case perception coincides with the unconditioned. Perception is not possible without mind. Therefore, in this case mind is unconditioned. Ie. mind here is not conditioned by name and form. In cessation there is no name and form. But there is awareness and perception. There is mind.
Why do you think so? It's not written there. It says that the mind is focused on the dhamma of nibbana, that is, cessation. Termination is unconditional and permanent. Try to break the cessation of a broken cup - you won't succeed, it can't even be touched or caught. Nowhere in this sutta is there a word that the mind becomes unconditioned or that it does not rely on name and form. Only that the object of perception becomes nibbana and the object of perception ceases to be the whole world. Think about this. When we focus on rupa jhana, the quality of rupa-loka becomes the object of our contemplation and the quality of kama-loka ceases to be the object of perception. But our mind does not become completely different, going beyond kama-loka. It's just that his field of perception and internal states have changed, that's all.
Then what is “final knowledge”? Explain the knowledge that accompanies Nibanna without referring to a mind of some kind.
The mind is present from the side of one who contemplates and comprehends nibbana-dhatu. But nibbana itself has nothing conditioned in it. That is, wisdom penetrates into a state in which there are no formed things, defilements of the mind, objects and consciousnesses. This is comprehended by wisdom, realized, understood. Like any other phenomenon is comprehended by the mind. Nibbana is conceived as the cessation of objects and the consciousnesses that were aware of them. This cessation is taken as an object of the supramundane mind.
ToVincent
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:54 pm Stop spreading misinformation immediately. Dependent origination is about arising and ceasing. "With the arising of this, that arises. With the cessation of this, that ceases." It's a basic part of the description of DO in the Pāli Canon, let alone the Āgamas. What you say about the parallel is incorrect nonsense you made up. I contend that it is lying precisely because you made it up out of your own head and maintain its truth despite being corrected and refuted.
What misinformation?

:::::::::::::
First:
:::::::::::::

Concerning the SN 47.42 parallel, namely SA 609, I have already said that I took the general meanings from the Chinese dictionary.
You added that there were some Sanskrit words that were additionally referred in that dictionary — samudaya for 集 — and astaṃ-gama for 沒.


2. Does that make a difference anyway? — Paṭiccasamuppāda is not samudaya/nirodha.
See below.

::::::::::::::::::::
Second:
::::::::::::::::::::

In accordance with custom, and conforming with (wrongly) accepted standards, "dependent origination" is the usually erroneous translation of paṭiccasamuppāda.

Paṭiccasamuppāda has to do with the twelve links (nidānā) — in which citta appears in the second one; and nāmarūpa as the fourth one.
There is a DIRECT causal relationship between these links, in their strict chronology — (and a correlation otherwise).
Paṭiccasamuppāda is about the chronological process.

When referring to paṭiccasamuppāda, you are quoting part of the most referred sutta.
In this case, a learned noble disciple carefully and properly attends to dependent origination itself:
Tatra, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako paṭiccasamuppādaṁyeva sādhukaṁ yoniso manasi karoti:
‘When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises.
‘iti imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti, imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati;
When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases. That is:
imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti, imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati
You have forgetten the crucial links' part:
avijjā is a condition for saṅkhārā.
yadidaṁ avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā;

saṅkhārā are a condition for viññāṇa. …
saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ …pe…
Which shows that there is nothing of the sort, like "nāmarūpa is a condition for citta / nāmarūpapaccayā citta !?!?!?).

Note that I still don't agree with this grammatically wrong translation of the relationship between the links — which should properly read:" avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā" = "saṅkhārā are the feedback of avijjā"; etc.
And I know that you call my translation heresy — which I take as a compliment, coming from you.

Also, I still have to check that other suttas like SN 12.61, have a perfect parallel. Does SN 12.61 have one? — Is the following set of rules formulated the same way in the parallels:
- attend to paṭiccasamuppāda.
- when this exists, that is, etc.
- avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā; etc.


One more time, samuppāda is not samudaya.

Samuppāda implies a direct cause.
I have already covered the particularity of samutpād (samuppāda), as the ***causative*** of samutpad.
The direct cause of citta is avijjā.
And the direct cause of saḷāyatana is nāmarūpa.

Samudaya has, in the very "Buddhistic" Maitrayaniya Upanishad, the meaning of "assemblage" (cf. 集 above in SA 609), or "aggregation".
Nāmarūpa is not the direct cause of citta. It is just that citta aggregates (with nāmarūpa) , when nāmarūpa aggregates.
The same way that there is aggregation of the nutriments with the body. Or that there is aggregation of "turning the mano towards the origin", and the phenomena (that is itself aggregating).


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Conclusion:
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The formulation of your title is wrong. The proper translation of paṭiccasamuppāda is not "dependent origination" - (nor should it be the translation of samudaya).
On top of using this wrong translation of paṭiccasamuppāda, you don't even respect the chronology of the links, as you even forgot to mention them — Therefore leading you to you consent to Ceisiwr's "citta is dependent on nāmarūpa".
It's just a mess - (and you seem to indulge with that).

One thing I know, is that citta is the result of the flow that falls down (utpād) from avijjā. And that it is called cittasaṅkhāra.
This cittasaṅkhāra will ultimately feed-back vijjā to avijjā — which is what paṭicca is all about.

_____
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

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Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:04 am
Have you migrated into Mahayana then, Ceiweser? Sutta pitaka not good enough? I made the same mistake as a young man. Prayed to Avalokitesvara for protection.
No. Regarding the suttas, I also look at northern agamas.
Thought I must be a Bodhisattva. Why? Of course because I was reading Prajnaparamita. The text told me I was important if I had gotten my hands on a copy.
Recently you were adamant that you were an Arahant. I see a pattern.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Sam Vara »

Moderator note: off-topic and personal attacks removed from one of the posts here. It should be easy to discuss technical stuff like this without getting personal. If there is any more, whole posts will be removed.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Coëmgenu »

That post was absurd and unacceptable, as usual, ToVincent. I will only respond to the material that is on-topic for this thread.
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:48 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:54 pmStop spreading misinformation immediately. Dependent origination is about arising and ceasing. "With the arising of this, that arises. With the cessation of this, that ceases." It's a basic part of the description of DO in the Pāli Canon, let alone the Āgamas. What you say about the parallel is incorrect nonsense you made up. I contend that it is lying precisely because you made it up out of your own head and maintain its truth despite being corrected and refuted.
What misinformation?
The misinformation is in the contents of your posts when you make up new meanings for words based on a misunderstanding of the role of etymology in semantics. This inventive making-up of new meanings for Buddhist terms is creative, but is not useful for those interested in what the Buddha actually meant.
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:48 am2. Does that make a difference anyway? — Paṭiccasamuppāda is not samudaya/nirodha.
You yourself will be quoted as posting the very sutta-material that establishes that "dependently originated" is synonymous with "arising and ceasing." It is you who provides the very material that proves yourself wrong and confused here, if only you understood.
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:48 amIn accordance with custom, and conforming with (wrongly) accepted standards, "dependent origination" is the usually erroneous translation of paṭiccasamuppāda.
This is incorrect. Ven Bodhi has translated the term correctly. You have not. Ven Bodhi, similarly, is qualified, and you are not. The dictionaries compiled by the real academics are trustworthy, your own idiosyncratic theories on this forum are not.
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:48 am
Tatra, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako paṭiccasamuppādaṁyeva sādhukaṁ yoniso manasi karoti:
‘When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises.
‘iti imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti, imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati;
When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases. That is:
imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti, imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati
You have forgetten the crucial links' part:
avijjā is a condition for saṅkhārā.
yadidaṁ avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā;

saṅkhārā are a condition for viññāṇa. …
saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ …pe…
Which shows that there is nothing of the sort, like "nāmarūpa is a condition for citta / nāmarūpapaccayā citta !?!?!?).
The mutually reciprocal nature of the two elements in "Xpaccayā Y" applies to all 12 links, including "viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ." Thus, "imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti, imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati" ("When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises.") applies to viññāṇa and nāmarūpa. One is "this" and the other is "that" in the Pāli pericope. Given that, if you've any knowledge of these things you claim to be learned in, you can see that here...
Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo
nāmarūpanirodhā cittassa atthaṅgamo
“With the origination of name-and-form there is the origination of mind.
With the cessation of name-and-form there is the passing away of mind.
(SN 47.42 Samudayasutta Ven Bodhi translation)

...this is the same structure. "With the origination of this, there is that. With the cessation of this, that ceases." That it is expressed in a different grammatical mood is merely a trivium. It is not a significant factor here that would obscure the obvious parallelism. In this passage, "citta" is synonymous with "viññāṇa," as it often is. You have personal beliefs concerning things like "the CI" (if I remember that capitalized word you like to talk about correctly) and other concepts that do not feature in any kind of Buddhism save your own. I understand that your idiosyncratic theories about the citta might prevent you from seeing that all three terms, citta, manas, and viññāṇa, can be used as synonyms.
nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṁ
‘With mentality-materiality as condition there is consciousness.’
(DN 15 Mahānidānasutta Ven Bodhi translation)

When the exposition is in great detail, not in brief, nāmarūpa and viññāṇa are particularly uniquely reciprocal, more so than any other two links in the sequence. In brief, the exposition merely covers "viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ." In great detail, the exposition includes both "nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṁ" and "viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ."

I feel that it would only be appropriate to conclude with Ven Bodhi:
The Pali texts present dependent arising in a double form. It appears both as an abstract statement of universal law and as the particular application of that law to the specific problem which is the doctrine's focal concern, namely, the problem of suffering. In its abstract form the principle of dependent arising is equivalent to the law of the conditioned genesis of phenomena. It expresses the invariable concomitance between the arising and ceasing of any given phenomenon and the functional efficacy of its originative conditions. Its phrasing, as terse as any formulation of modern logic, recurs in the ancient texts thus: "This being, that exists; through the arising of this that arises. This not being, that does not exist; through the ceasing of this that ceases."

When applied to the problem of suffering, the abstract principle becomes encapsulated in a twelve-term formula disclosing the causal nexus responsible for the origination of suffering. It begins with ignorance, the primary root of the series though not a first cause, conditioning the arising of ethically determinate volitions, which in turn condition the arising of consciousness, and so on through the salient occasions of sentient becoming down to their conclusion in old age and death
(Transcendental Dependent Arising: A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta, Ven Bodhi)

Please do not post anymore off-tangent etymological and semantical fancies based on your pre-existing thread here. You already have a thread for your radical alternative theories concerning the "original meanings" or "true meanings" of these terms as derived from your understanding of their Vedic usage and other phantasmagoria. I did not respond to the various off-topic wrong statements in the rest of your post because I am taking a hardline approach with material directly relevant to the OP, namely that "citta is dependently originated" and agreements, disputations, explorations, and clarifications of that. A lot of the off-topic material you posted here is simply repurposed and all-but-reposted argumentation from your former thread, which has already been discussed and addressed there. That conversation does not need to happen in two threads. Here is not the place to discuss your alternative proposals relating to the semantics of Pāli. Particularly, any material disputing Venerable Bodhi's understanding of the "Xpaccayā Y" formula will be simply cross-posting material you've already posted and that we've already discussed from your thread that I linked to just now. Any such off-topic material will be addressed there and not here.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by cappuccino »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:36 am I do know that we are participating in some kind of field of consciousness that can't die
:goodpost:
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by justindesilva »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:53 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:36 am I do know that we are participating in some kind of field of consciousness that can't die
:goodpost:
Mind and body are one another. The mind is not seperate from the body in action. With our five senses active always, but one at a time, the eye, ear, nose, mouth,or the skin or as a sixth the heart gets stimulated by an external signal or form. Say a form of a beautiful woman on the eye or a smooth touch on the skin or a musical note in the ear etc. The stimulation passing through as feeling, sangna or signal as a frequency enters the brain where the brain analyses and detects a past experience of rupa, song, smell , taste or touch. An excitement of such message based on it perceives (vingnana) our emotion exciting our desires with thought as mano.(mano pubbangama damma). This thought creates a desire or tanha. It all happens in our brain where tanha
further carries our mind towards clinging.
That is how mano, citta, vingnana corelates external surrounding with us where we are organisms expressed as dependantly originated. In fact we are conditioned to operate as an mind body related organism. Consciouness is totally interrelated operationally. Also see Rohitassa sutta to realise that it is a seperate world too.
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:36 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:44 pm That post was absurd and unacceptable, as usual, ToVincent.
Coming from you, the fact that you find what I say "unacceptable" is a great relief for me.
That should strenghthen my determination to look further for the right historical meanings, among the Indian litterature at the time of Buddha - (not after).
.
.
As has been explained to you, over and over again, your methodology is flawed.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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