Citta is dependently originated

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:27 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:44 am You will die. Buddhism is not a religion about denying this.
So this is your big dhamma insight and declaration?
Yes. Not only that, but that big dhamma insight is the appropriate medicine for your misconception. This whole unbound deathless citta thing is just a mildly sophisticated way to deny that you will die. It's what you are using Buddhism for.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:27 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:09 am
It takes a lot more than you to ruffle me.
Going by your reactions on this thread you were ruffled long before I made any comment.
You will believe any contrarian narrative that ends with you on top. Your accusations of me masturbating, intellectually or not, are childish and incoherent for someone who has access to "some of the most interesting and profound tools, in the Universe," tools whose usage is as easy as holding it under the tongue for 20 minutes. As for your characterization of me having used more psychedelics than you, it would merely make me your elder in their usage. Elders often have more experiential knowledge than the childish.

You looking down at me for using weed in university is like an alcoholic who scoffs at heroin users.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Pondera
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:44 am It's amazing how some people will use any cheapshot that comes to mind so long as it doesn't name names. Oh, those nasty stupid unnamed people deliberately tying themselves in knots to avoid acknowledging something. Whoever could they be?

Citta is dependently originated. Viññāṇa is dependently originated. Manas is dependently originated. Is doesn't matter what the drugs told you. That doesn't effect this fact. You will die. Buddhism is not a religion about denying this.
How is it possible to know that one is liberated without mind?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:03 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:44 am It's amazing how some people will use any cheapshot that comes to mind so long as it doesn't name names. Oh, those nasty stupid unnamed people deliberately tying themselves in knots to avoid acknowledging something. Whoever could they be?

Citta is dependently originated. Viññāṇa is dependently originated. Manas is dependently originated. Is doesn't matter what the drugs told you. That doesn't effect this fact. You will die. Buddhism is not a religion about denying this.
How is it possible to know that one is liberated without mind?
According to the Higher Prajñāpāramitā, none of the Saṃbuddhas have "a mind." Your question is not answerable according to the tenet system of Theravāda as far as I understand it. It's not on-topic to discuss the Mahāyāna too deeply in this subforum, so our dialogue on this thread about it will have to end there.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:03 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:44 am It's amazing how some people will use any cheapshot that comes to mind so long as it doesn't name names. Oh, those nasty stupid unnamed people deliberately tying themselves in knots to avoid acknowledging something. Whoever could they be?

Citta is dependently originated. Viññāṇa is dependently originated. Manas is dependently originated. Is doesn't matter what the drugs told you. That doesn't effect this fact. You will die. Buddhism is not a religion about denying this.
How is it possible to know that one is liberated without mind?
How is it possible for there to be liberation if mind exists? If mind exists, it either has always existed or is generated. If it has always existed then it cannot become liberated. If it is generated from causes then it arises from nothing, but nothing cannot be said to exist. Existence and non-existence therefore cannot be established in relation to mind, citta or viññāṇa. All that can be known are the words, the concepts, and concepts cannot be said to really exist or not exist.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Pondera
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:08 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:03 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:44 am It's amazing how some people will use any cheapshot that comes to mind so long as it doesn't name names. Oh, those nasty stupid unnamed people deliberately tying themselves in knots to avoid acknowledging something. Whoever could they be?

Citta is dependently originated. Viññāṇa is dependently originated. Manas is dependently originated. Is doesn't matter what the drugs told you. That doesn't effect this fact. You will die. Buddhism is not a religion about denying this.
How is it possible to know that one is liberated without mind?
According to the Higher Prajñāpāramitā, none of the Saṃbuddhas have "a mind." Your question is not answerable according to the tenet system of Theravāda as far as I understand it. It's not on-topic to discuss the Mahāyāna too deeply in this subforum, so our dialogue on this thread about it will have to end there.
The Buddha didn’t teach the Prajnaparamita texts. They’re the works of later poets and scholars. The “emptiness of emptiness of emptiness” non-sense of the Mahayana schools is a later development. You forget that I know all about it. So, nice try with that - but you’re not going to be able to get out of this one by appealing to authority (certainly not an authority who falsely claims to be the word of the Buddha or Sariputta or Subhuti).

And my question is quite clearly answered by AN 11.7. And AN 11.8. Perception and awareness and knowledge coincide with the unconditioned. Unconditioned awareness is a part of the liberation process. Not all forms of knowing and/or perceiving are conditioned by name and form.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Pondera
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:10 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:03 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:44 am It's amazing how some people will use any cheapshot that comes to mind so long as it doesn't name names. Oh, those nasty stupid unnamed people deliberately tying themselves in knots to avoid acknowledging something. Whoever could they be?

Citta is dependently originated. Viññāṇa is dependently originated. Manas is dependently originated. Is doesn't matter what the drugs told you. That doesn't effect this fact. You will die. Buddhism is not a religion about denying this.
How is it possible to know that one is liberated without mind?
How is it possible for there to be liberation if mind exists? If mind exists, it either has always existed or is generated. If it has always existed then it cannot become liberated. If it is generated from causes then it arises from nothing, but nothing cannot be said to exist. Existence and non-existence therefore cannot be established in relation to mind, citta or viññāṇa. All that can be known are the words, the concepts, and concepts cannot be said to really exist or not exist.
I’m not arguing that mind exists. I’m not arguing that liberation exists.

I am putting out the notion that liberation is an unconditioned dhamma and that it is known and that because it is known (in an unconditioned coincidence) there must be a mind that allows for this knowledge. Knowledge cannot happen without awareness. It cannot be done while unconscious.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:59 am ~
The Buddha taught the cessation of becoming, not annihilation which he called a wrong view.

Many desire to escape into nothingness, it is not unusual.

It seems you are also using Buddhism merely as device to give you sense of intellectual superiority and probably as part of your social self image. A wrong path.

And you can't have it both ways, you are trying to now turn you extensive recreational drug use into a tool to say that my psychedelic insights, which I feel complement meditative ones, cannot be valid. How you use them is key, you used DMT alongside who knows what else which is a hard to get psychedelic and not one I have personally experienced but your conclusions are your own.
You general demeanor and way of speaking doesn't really do any favours to the against psychedelic camp either or speak much about any progress you had made without them.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:20 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:16 amYou forget that I know all about it.
You have no clue what the Prajñāpāramitā is about. The time you allegedly spent reading it was wasted. You learned nothing about it.
This is not the manner of speaking of one versed or adept in the dhamma, friend.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:25 amIt seems you are also using Buddhism merely as device to give you sense of intellectual superiority and probably as part of your social self image. A wrong path.
More fake news. By all means, tear me down in any way you see fit. Whatever avoids you having to desconstruct the reasons why you insist on an eternal citta.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:28 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:20 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:16 amYou forget that I know all about it.
You have no clue what the Prajñāpāramitā is about. The time you allegedly spent reading it was wasted. You learned nothing about it.
This is not the manner of speaking of one versed or adept in the dhamma, friend.
It is a manner appropriate for addressing Pondera's post.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:19 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:10 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:03 am

How is it possible to know that one is liberated without mind?
How is it possible for there to be liberation if mind exists? If mind exists, it either has always existed or is generated. If it has always existed then it cannot become liberated. If it is generated from causes then it arises from nothing, but nothing cannot be said to exist. Existence and non-existence therefore cannot be established in relation to mind, citta or viññāṇa. All that can be known are the words, the concepts, and concepts cannot be said to really exist or not exist.
I’m not arguing that mind exists. I’m not arguing that liberation exists.

I am putting out the notion that liberation is an unconditioned dhamma and that it is known and that because it is known (in an unconditioned coincidence) there must be a mind that allows for this knowledge. Knowledge cannot happen without awareness. It cannot be done while unconscious.
Then, in agreement with the Prajñāpāramitā, conventionally there is a mind which knows liberation. Just like how conventionally the Buddha ate food, or said "I am hot". Ultimately, at the awakened point of view, there are no notions of existence, non-existence, mind, arising, ceasing or liberation.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:28 am By all means, tear me down in any way you see fit. Whatever avoids you having to desconstruct the reasons why you insist on an eternal citta.
You are tearing yourself down in this thread, you don't need any help from me. But perhaps you gotta ruffled and are having a bad day. I don't think this is the best you and I have had engaging conversations with you in the past so I give you the benefit of the doubt.

Ironically you have it the wrong way around.
I was pretty much an atheist/agnostic with no sense of the continuity of consciousness after death.
Coming to Buddhism coincided with some LSD experiences giving me a sense of an uncreated consciousness that is part of the structure of reality, and that sense has remained in some form and I don't doubt it.

So trying to argue it is just a defence mechanism is flawed, but actually is the exact same argument that postmodern atheist writers use to try to trivialize all religious beliefs which is why I find it interesting you follow the same template.
Last edited by Cause_and_Effect on Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Coëmgenu »

The old "postmodernism" boogeyman again. Are you running out of ideas? Your armchair psychologizing of me aside, this unbound eternal deathless citta delusion is merely an attempt to deny your death. It matters not if you found it through drugs or through a sober imagination. That you found it through psychedelics just magnifies a confirmation bias. You already baselessly think that ayahuasca is a metaphysical and/or spiritual tool. The confirmation bias demands that insights from the drug also be deeply spiritual.

Calling me an atheist is rather rich. You don't know what atheism or postmodernism is. I'm content to have both of us believe the other is merely digging themself into a hole.
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:43 am this unbound eternal deathless citta delusion is merely an attempt to deny your death.
There is no denial of death.
Your claim could apply equally to the Buddha's teaching of rebirth.

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:43 am You already baselessly think that ayahuasca is a metaphysical and/or spiritual tool. The confirmation bias demands that insights from the drug also be deeply spiritual.
I don't rate your little recreational dabbling alongside any kind of serious use no, nor the multitudes of current and historical spiritual use of these substances to good effect or my own insights.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:43 am Calling me an atheist is rather rich. You don't know what atheism or postmodernism is. I'm content to have both of us believe the other is merely digging themself into a hole.
Like I said I don't see what great strides in the dhamma you have made since your drug hedonism days either so yes we can leave it there.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:01 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:43 am this unbound eternal deathless citta delusion is merely an attempt to deny your death.
There is no denial of death.
Your claim could apply equally to the Buddha's teaching of rebirth.
But it's not so validly applied. Rebirth necessarily involves death, unless you believe in some stupid version of it, such as Sati the fisherman's son's version of it, which is to say "unless you are believing in an eternal undying citta."

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:01 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:43 am You already baselessly think that ayahuasca is a metaphysical and/or spiritual tool. The confirmation bias demands that insights from the drug also be deeply spiritual.
I don't rate your little recreational dabbling alongside any kind of serious use no, nor the multitudes of current and historical spiritual use of these substances to good effect or my own insights.
I know you place your drug use on a high pedestal. It seems you consider yourself part of a continuity of similarly-stoned sages going back in time as well.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:01 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:43 am Calling me an atheist is rather rich. You don't know what atheism or postmodernism is. I'm content to have both of us believe the other is merely digging themself into a hole.
Like I said I don't see what great strides in the dhamma you have made since your drug hedonism days either so yes we can leave it there.
Can you describe my "drug hedonism" days more? You seem like such an expert on them. I have progressed much since my early 20s and late teens.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Jack19990101
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Re: Citta is dependently originated

Post by Jack19990101 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:13 am
Jack19990101 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:02 am The citta in context of 3rd theme of Satipatthana Sutta, it is citta with attributes.
Another term would be it is alternated citta, or tainted citta, or impure citta.

MN 10 - Mindfulness of Citta, in its detailed guide of howto, it says, evaluate citta's expansiveness; its taints of lust, hatred or delusion; its comparative status among other citta. so on.

For citta with taints, it will have an origin and it will cease. This is not to be considered as citta with attributes of liberation.
If citta with attributes of liberation never ceases, how does it arise? If it permanently exists it has always existed. If it is brought into being it comes from nothing, yet nothing cannot be said to exist. How then is a liberated citta permanent? Further more, if a liberated citta permanently exists and is equated with the unconditioned then nibbāna is citta. The Buddha said there is only 1 unconditioned dhamma. Citta then would have to be nibbāna, but nibbāna cannot be said to exist nor not-exist. If then citta is nibbāna, citta cannot be said to exist.
I think the term 'exist' is lack of precision in mental/citta sphere.
But i think that best verse goes to the zen's Gateless Gate.
My understanding is that if going toward the gate, the gate is there.
Once the gate is crossed,looking backward, gate is gone. Recognition is that the gate was never there to start with.

I don't think i can do better than this zen Master.
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