Passaddhi; and a more general question

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Sam Vara
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Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by Sam Vara »

In SN 46.2, we are told that there is food/nutriment for the sambojjhangas. The food for passaddhisambojjhanga is kāyapassaddhi, and cittapassaddhi. So bodily tranquillity and mental tranquillity are good for developing and bringing to fulfilment the quality of tranquillity in general.

Now, I'm pretty confident at taking a guess as to what these two terms mean. Well, more confident in the case of bodily tranquillity, as relaxing the body is almost mandatory as a start of guided meditations. But is there an account somewhere of what they mean exactly? The Buddha doesn't go through the "relaxation" preamble when describing meditation, even if physically relaxing the muscles of the body is what it actually means. (And there may be some who translate kāya differently from the physical body, and I'm happy to accommodate that too, if there are good reasons for it...) And mental tranquillity? What does it mean here?

And the more general question is this. When questions like this are asked on DW, often people pop up with really helpful explanations and clarifications from commentaries. I know very little indeed of the commentaries. Is there a way of finding out what a specific passage like the above means by looking it up in the commentaries? "SN 46.2, exact meaning of kāyapassadhi, etc..." How is it actually done?

If I knew, I could answer my own daft questions without bothering you! :anjali:
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:31 pm

And the more general question is this. When questions like this are asked on DW, often people pop up with really helpful explanations and clarifications from commentaries. I know very little indeed of the commentaries. Is there a way of finding out what a specific passage like the above means by looking it up in the commentaries? "SN 46.2, exact meaning of kāyapassadhi, etc..." How is it actually done?

If I knew, I could answer my own daft questions without bothering you! :anjali:
The Vibhaṅga frames it in terms of tranquility of of the nāmakāya, as does the Dhammasaṅgaṇī
Therein what is calmness-enlightenment-factor? That which of the aggregate of feeling, of the aggregate of perception, of the aggregate of mental concomitants, of the aggregate of consciousness is calmness, serenity, being calm, being serene, state of being serene, calmness-enlightenment-factor. This is called calmness-enlightenment-factor. (5)
https://suttacentral.net/vb10/en/thittila

The Visuddhimagga naturally adopts this view
"144. (xvi)–(xvii) The tranquillizing of the body is tranquillity of the body. The tranquillizing of consciousness is tranquillity of consciousness. And here body means the three [mental] aggregates, feeling, [perception and formations] (see Dhs 40). But both tranquillity of that body and of consciousness have, together, the characteristic of quieting disturbance of that body and of consciousness. Their function is to crush disturbance of the [mental] body and of consciousness. They are manifested as inactivity and coolness of the [mental] body and of consciousness. Their proximate cause is the [mental] body and consciousness. They should be regarded as opposed to the defilements of agitation, etc., which cause unpeacefulness in the [mental] body and in consciousness"
Visuddhimagga CHAPTER XIV The Aggregates

In comparison the Vimuttimagga only talks about tranquility of "body and mind" without ever defining them, but it seems to have the physical body in mind.
Through the mind being full of joy, his body and mind are endowed with calm; this is called the enlightenment factor of calm.
Vimuttimagga Page 164

If you want to know what a non-Theravādin interpretation is you could try searching the Mahāprajñāpāramitā-śāstra for the Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika and Mahāyāna position: https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... ita-sastra

There is also a part translation of Ven. Asaṅga's Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra here: https://buddhavacana.net/yogacarabhumi-sastra/ which would cover the Yogācāra/Mahīśāsaka interpretation (you would want section 6), although the Abhidharma-samuccaya, also written by him, will probably be best for the Mahīśāsaka point of view (Ven. Asaṅga used to belong to this school) which can be found on Scribd if you pay to sign up.
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Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:31 pm ...
I've included some screenshots from the Atthasālinī for you, which discusses it in a bit more detail from the Theravādin POV. Sadly I don't know how to place them in order.
Attachments
Atta 3.jpg
Atta 2.jpg
Atta 1.jpg
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by SDC »

I think a sutta such as AN 10.3 is essential when reading SN 46.2 since occasionally you see something like this:
SN 46.2 wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of rapture and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of rapture? There are, bhikkhus, things that are the basis for the enlightenment factor of rapture: frequently giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of rapture and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of rapture.
…where the things that are the “basis for rapture” are not included. The basis, according to AN 10.3 (and many others) is joy, based on non-regret, based on virtue.
AN 10.1 wrote: Bhikkhus, (1) for a virtuous person, for one whose behavior is virtuous, (2) non-regret possesses its proximate cause. When there is non-regret, for one possessing non-regret, (3) joy possesses its proximate cause. When there is joy, for one possessing joy, (4) rapture possesses its proximate cause. When there is rapture, for one possessing rapture, (5) tranquility possesses its proximate cause. When there is tranquility, for one possessing tranquility, (6) pleasure possesses its proximate cause. When there is pleasure, for one possessing pleasure, (7) right concentration possesses its proximate cause. When there is right concentration, for one possessing right concentration, (8) the knowledge and vision of things as they really are possesses its proximate cause. When there is the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, for one possessing the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, (9) disenchantment and dispassion possess their proximate cause. When there is disenchantment and dispassion, for one possessing disenchantment and dispassion, (10) the knowledge and vision of liberation possesses its proximate cause.
So the previous enlightenment factor of rapture is the basis of tranquility.

So for:
SN 46.2 wrote: And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of tranquillity and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of tranquillity? There are, bhikkhus, tranquillity of body, tranquillity of mind: frequently giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of tranquillity and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of tranquillity.
All the basis’ must be developed and that rapture established.
AN 10.2 wrote: For one who is joyful no volition need be exerted: ‘Let rapture arise in me.’ It is natural that rapture arises in one who is joyful.
“For one with a rapturous mind no volition need be exerted: ‘Let my body be tranquil.’ It is natural that the body of one with a rapturous mind is tranquil.
SN 52.13 wrote: When the mind is full of rapture, the body and mind become tranquil. At such a time, a mendicant has activated the awakening factor of tranquility; they develop it and perfect it.
Ud 8.4 wrote:For the dependent there is agitation. For the independent there’s no agitation. When there’s no agitation there is tranquility. When there is tranquility there’s no inclination.
SN 46.52 wrote: Whatever tranquillity of body there is, is the enlightenment factor of tranquillity; whatever tranquillity of mind there is, is also the enlightenment factor of tranquillity. Thus what is spoken of concisely as the enlightenment factor of tranquillity becomes, by this method of exposition, twofold.
SN 35.97 wrote: And how, bhikkhus, does one dwell diligently? If one dwells with restraint over the eye faculty, the mind is not soiled among forms cognizable by the eye. If the mind is not soiled, gladness is born. When one is gladdened, rapture is born. When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become manifest. Because phenomena become manifest, one is reckoned as ‘one who dwells diligently.’

“If one dwells with restraint over the ear faculty, the mind is not soiled among sounds cognizable by the ear…. If one dwells with restraint over the mind faculty, the mind is not soiled among mental phenomena cognizable by the mind…. Because phenomena become manifest, one is reckoned as ‘one who dwells diligently.’
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:25 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:31 pm ...
I've included some screenshots from the Atthasālinī for you, which discusses it in a bit more detail from the Theravādin POV. Sadly I don't know how to place them in order.
It's called "place inline." It will give you code that looks like this:

[ attachment=0]FILE NAME HERE [/attachment]

...or something like that. The attachments will be numbered in the code. You can use this to place the attachments in the body of your text.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:54 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:25 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:31 pm ...
I've included some screenshots from the Atthasālinī for you, which discusses it in a bit more detail from the Theravādin POV. Sadly I don't know how to place them in order.
It's called "place inline." It will give you code that looks like this:

[ attachment=0]FILE NAME HERE [/attachment]

...or something like that. The attachments will be numbered in the code. You can use this to place the attachments in the body of your text.
Thanks :thumbsup:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by santa100 »

Sam Vara wrote:And the more general question is this. When questions like this are asked on DW, often people pop up with really helpful explanations and clarifications from commentaries. I know very little indeed of the commentaries. Is there a way of finding out what a specific passage like the above means by looking it up in the commentaries? "SN 46.2, exact meaning of kāyapassadhi, etc..." How is it actually done?
Ven. Bodhi's "Connected Discourses" already did most of the tedious lookup work for us. Beside citing the Comy's interpretation, he usually also offer his own take on the matter, which is helpful. So imho, in about 85% of the time, just using Bodhi's Nikayas books would be sufficient in terms of terms' translation and meanings. For the other remaining cases, one can always look up for himself using various sources like the Vism., CMA, Ven. Thanissaro's, Gunaratana's and various authors on accesstoinsight.org, and/or the Comys themselves.
Bodhi's 'Connected Discourses' wrote:Spk: Tranquillity of body (kayappassaddhi) is the tranquillizing of distress in the three mental aggregates (feeling, perception, volitional formations), tranquillity of mind (cittappassaddhi ) the tranquillizing of distress in the aggregate of consciousness.
The commentaries frequently interpret the pair, body and mind, mentioned in the texts in the light of the Abhidhamma, which draws a contrast between mind (citta), the chief factor in cognition, and its accompanying “body” of mental factors (cetasika), which perform secondary cognitive functions. It seems, however, that in such passages as the present one, “body” was intended quite literally as meaning the physical body, considered as actively contributing to the qualitative tone of an experience.
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by Pulsar »

Sam Vara wrote
In SN 46.2, we are told that there is food/nutriment for the sambojjhangas. The food for passaddhisambojjhanga is kāyapassaddhi, and cittapassaddhi. So bodily tranquillity and mental tranquillity are good for developing and bringing to fulfilment the quality of tranquillity in general.
Which version of SN 46.2 are you reading? The content of V. Sujato's translation appears to be completely different from the VBB translation. V. Sujato https://suttacentral.net/sn47.2/en/suja ... ript=latin
Do you have the Pali version of the VBB translation? I have a hard copy of VBB English version.
I believe V. Sujato's version,
it makes sense in terms of the agama parallel SA 622.
Since you are quite familiar with Pali, pl tell us whether Sujato got the Pali wrong? The Pali version is set against the English version in the sutta central version, it is pretty easy to see if there is an error.
Besides it is a fairly short sutta that directs our attention to Satipatthana, and not to nutrients.
Pali version is titled Sati sutta.
I found your daft question tantalizing for other reasons, but first let me sort out the incongruities in the two different translations, with your help.
With love :candle:
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by Sam Vara »

Hi Pulsar,

You appear to have linked to 47.2, rather than 46.2, which explains the massive incongruities! :D :anjali:
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by Sam Vara »

Thank you to all who answered here. You are all so helpful! :anjali: :heart:
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by asahi »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:31 pm In SN 46.2,
Well, more confident in the case of bodily tranquillity, as relaxing the body is almost mandatory as a start of guided meditations. But is there an account somewhere of what they mean exactly? The Buddha doesn't go through the "relaxation" preamble when describing meditation, even if physically relaxing the muscles of the body is what it actually means. (And there may be some who translate kāya differently from the physical body, and I'm happy to accommodate that too, if there are good reasons for it...) And mental tranquillity? What does it mean here?

"SN 46.2, exact meaning of kāyapassadhi, etc..." How is it actually done?
It seems many of us (me) do not have meditation experiences , however , this is my understanding .
In the process of meditation , first thing get eliminated is coarse bodily activity and mental diversion and its hindrances . Once unwholesomeness gets eliminated , the mind would feel lighter which inturn cause the physical body feel lighter also . As you advances , the joy arises from meditation causes the physical body attain calmness (kayapassadhi) and mind becomes very calm (cittapassaddhi) .
When you are at this stage you are near to entering samadhi .
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by Pulsar »

Sam Vera wrote
You appear to have linked to 47.2, rather than 46.2, which explains the massive incongruities!
You are right, I apologise. I was studying Satipatthana Samyutta and Bojjhanga Samyutta at the same time, perhaps I typed in the 46, thinking it was 47.
The error is entirely mine. Yet I will try to answer your question in a daft way, using the correct sutta
this time. Give me a moment.
Regards :candle:
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by Pulsar »

Sam Vera wrote:
In SN 46.2, we are told that there is food/nutriment for the sambojjhangas. The food for passaddhisambojjhanga is kāyapassaddhi, and cittapassaddhi. So bodily tranquillity and mental tranquillity are good for developing and bringing to fulfilment the quality of tranquillity in general. 
you also wrote 
If I knew, I could answer my own daft questions without bothering you!
Here is my kinda daft answer. Suttas on Samma Sati say Awakening factors arise when Samma Sati is accomplished. So the two samyuttas are closely related. One needs to practice Satipatthana to arouse the awakening factors? 
SN 47.42 writes body arises when it is fed
What does body mean? Those of the tradition interpret "it" as a physical body, but I do not. If we read Dhatusamyutta,
it implies that forms/bodies arise in the mind based on our craving.
SN 12.64 writes
"A person brings Rupa/body into existence when they bring consciousness into existence via feeling, intention etc"
We know that our body does not noticeably change based on what we had for dinner, so physical food is inconsequential here.
The feeding is described in Putramansa sutta SN 12.63. The soteriological lesson there is not the physical food. It is more about what we feed our senses with such as sights, sounds, touches, etc.
When we feed our senses, it leads to the arising of consciousness at the sense bases.
  • Newly arisen consciousness longs for more of what it is craving.
In our longing for a dead mother, we recreate her form in our minds. Do we create a physical body of our dead relative when we crave her presence? Her form, her sounds, her smell or her touch is recreated in the imagination to satisfy the arisen craving.

"kaya" is something sensed that is derived from physical elements, it is a mental thing, but the tradition understood it to be physical bodies. I do not. Do i make sense to you?
In SN 47.15 and SN 47.16. Buddha says "purify the very starting point of wholesome states," (quite frequently found in suttas related to Satipatthana.)
When you reject, forms, sounds etc that appear in the mind/consciouness, of physical objects, (the first establishment of mindfulness) craving for those objects, does not progress or it does not arise.
This was the advice to Bahia, reject forms, sounds sensed etc. and Bahia understood that right away.
By that understanding he was able to derail the consciousness that brings distress. An enlightened consciousness is the result. It has no longings, no wish, no craving.
Maintenance of this state is called Samma Samadhi.
Samma Sati is the entrance to that Samma Samadhi. When the tradition interpreted the first establishment of mindfulness to be the physical body?? (although SN 47.42 did not), it changed the way people approached meditation.
With love  :candle:
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by frank k »

https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/5passaddhi ... ml#flink-8
in SN 36.11
look at how the 6 passaddhi's are used to describe 9 samadhi attainments, but deliberately omitting the formless attainments, in contrast to the 9 nirodhas and 9 vupasamas. This is incontrovertible evidence that kaya-passaddhi refers to pacification of the physical body, the sutta is the Buddha's own commentary on passaddhi.

citta passaddhi has a straightforward meaning, again noticing what physical and mental elements would have to be pacified through those 9 samadhi attainments in SN 36.11

first jhana pacifies unskillfull thoughts with skillful ones.
second jhana sublimates skillful verbal thoughts into subverbal mental activity (most commonly described as paying attention to Dharmic perceptions).
3rd jhana the mental trigger for piti is discarded as being an unnecessary expenditure of energy,
3rd and 4th jhana equanimous observation becomes the norm, so the mind is pacified by not expending energy having emotional reactions (most prominently as opposed to the rapture of second jhana, the thrill of physical bliss of samadhi, or the thrill of being enraptured not dependent of the 5 cords of sensual pleasure abandoned from first jhana).

What's amazing about the suttas is once you really understand the LBT Theravada misinformation that's commonly fed to the public, you realize the Buddha used words in plain language describing things simply, clearly, accurately, like you would expect a great teacher to do.



Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:31 pm In SN 46.2, we are told that there is food/nutriment for the sambojjhangas. The food for passaddhisambojjhanga is kāyapassaddhi, and cittapassaddhi. So bodily tranquillity and mental tranquillity are good for developing and bringing to fulfilment the quality of tranquillity in general.

Now, I'm pretty confident at taking a guess as to what these two terms mean. Well, more confident in the case of bodily tranquillity, as relaxing the body is almost mandatory as a start of guided meditations. But is there an account somewhere of what they mean exactly? The Buddha doesn't go through the "relaxation" preamble when describing meditation, even if physically relaxing the muscles of the body is what it actually means. (And there may be some who translate kāya differently from the physical body, and I'm happy to accommodate that too, if there are good reasons for it...) And mental tranquillity? What does it mean here?

And the more general question is this. When questions like this are asked on DW, often people pop up with really helpful explanations and clarifications from commentaries. I know very little indeed of the commentaries. Is there a way of finding out what a specific passage like the above means by looking it up in the commentaries? "SN 46.2, exact meaning of kāyapassadhi, etc..." How is it actually done?

If I knew, I could answer my own daft questions without bothering you! :anjali:
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Re: Passaddhi; and a more general question

Post by S. Johann »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:31 pm In SN 46.2, we are told that there is food/nutriment for the sambojjhangas. The food for passaddhisambojjhanga is kāyapassaddhi, and cittapassaddhi. So bodily tranquillity and mental tranquillity are good for developing and bringing to fulfilment the quality of tranquillity in general.

Now, I'm pretty confident at taking a guess as to what these two terms mean. Well, more confident in the case of bodily tranquillity, as relaxing the body is almost mandatory as a start of guided meditations. But is there an account somewhere of what they mean exactly? The Buddha doesn't go through the "relaxation" preamble when describing meditation, even if physically relaxing the muscles of the body is what it actually means. (And there may be some who translate kāya differently from the physical body, and I'm happy to accommodate that too, if there are good reasons for it...) And mental tranquillity? What does it mean here?

And the more general question is this. When questions like this are asked on DW, often people pop up with really helpful explanations and clarifications from commentaries. I know very little indeed of the commentaries. Is there a way of finding out what a specific passage like the above means by looking it up in the commentaries? "SN 46.2, exact meaning of kāyapassadhi, etc..." How is it actually done?

If I knew, I could answer my own daft questions without bothering you! :anjali:
Good householder,

Calm has satisfaction/satisfied (pity) as it's cause. Satisfaction, joy (pamojja). This has Saddha as it's cause, which could be reactivated by the six basic reflections, bringing joy in ways of letting go and surrender by reflecting on the Sublime teacher, his Dhamma, the good Sangha, ones own goodness, Sila, Caga, Deva-attributes.

To have means to reflect on, required to meet the Gems, know them. And having base to rejoice on ones goodness.

So when ever Samvega, Dukkha comes to awarness, as it is the prerequisite of Saddha to arise, having done the bases for the reflections, there should be less hindrance to use the cleaning tools, if having kept in mind.

Of cause it's total impossible to gain calm if there is act-ually no paccaya for it. So working on the bases, starting by right view, is required, and faultless no need to wish for the depending co-dissapearings chains to arise.

Much Sukha by doing, by surrender house/stand.
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