Passaddhi; and a more general question

[Pulsar]

frank k wrote

What's amazing about the suttas is once you really understand the LBT Theravada misinformation that's commonly fed to the public, you realize the Buddha used words in plain language describing things simply, clearly, accurately, like you would expect a great teacher to do.

Are you referring to SN 36.11? Do you think all the words in SN 36.11 are Buddha's words?

When you get a chance pl. check out SA 473, its Agama parallel. I don't have the time to respond today,
but will do so tomorrow.
Unless I got the numbers wrong??
Regards
PS grateful to V. Sujato who realized the value of making agama versions of Pali suttas available
to the public.

[auto]

https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/5passaddhi ... ml#flink-8
in SN 36.11
look at how the 6 passaddhi's are used to describe 9 samadhi attainments, but deliberately omitting the formless attainments, in contrast to the 9 nirodhas and 9 vupasamas. This is incontrovertible evidence that kaya-passaddhi refers to pacification of the physical body, the sutta is the Buddha's own commentary on passaddhi.

citta passaddhi has a straightforward meaning, again noticing what physical and mental elements would have to be pacified through those 9 samadhi attainments in SN 36.11

when physical endurance is developed then pleasant feeling doesn't occupy the mind and when mind is developed then painful feeling doesn't occupy the mind

Take an uneducated ordinary person who has a pleasant feeling.
When they experience pleasant feeling they become full of lust for it.
Then that pleasant feeling ceases.
And when it ceases, a painful feeling arises.
When they suffer painful feeling, they sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion.

Because their physical endurance is undeveloped, pleasant feelings occupy the mind. And because their mind is undeveloped, painful feelings occupy the mind.
Tassa kho esā, aggivessana, uppannāpi sukhā vedanā cittaṁ pariyādāya tiṭṭhati abhāvitattā kāyassa, uppannāpi dukkhā vedanā cittaṁ pariyādāya tiṭṭhati abhāvitattā cittassa.

pleasant feeling what is experienced is the jhāna,

Because there is another pleasure that is finer than that.
And what is that pleasure?
Katamañcānanda, etamhā sukhā aññaṁ sukhaṁ abhikkantatarañca paṇītatarañca?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful..

and that pleasure won't occupy the mind,

After eating solid food and gathering my strength, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption,
..
But even such pleasant feeling did not occupy my mind.

My guess is that the passadhi(in sn36.11) refer to the cessation of feeling(vaci, vitakkavicara etc). Also can see how feeling is sankhāra in case of jhāna. And if it is pleasant then it refer to the kaya passadhi.

8 Kàya-passaddhi – tranquillity of mental concomitants
9 Citta-passaddhi – tranquillity of consciousness

here we could again read maybe it means physical body, but it means mind produced corporeality.

By citta-passaddhi, only citta is tranquil. By kàya-passaddhi,
not only are the mental concomitants tranquil, but also the body
is tranquil due to the diffusion of wholesome cittaja-råpa, which
is mind-produced corporeality

[Pulsar]

Dear frank k: Thanks for another fraudulent sutta from Pali Nikaya SN 36.11.
The Original sutta SA 473 describes the nature of 3 kinds of feelings. It reads simply as follows.
A monk says to Buddha

"Your Holiness! I was meditating in a quiet place, and I thought, 'What is the meaning of the three sufferings that the World Honored One has described as blissful, bitter, and unblissful, and that all sufferings are suffering?

The Buddha replies,

"I say that all sufferings are suffering because all actions are impermanent and all actions are variable. At that moment, the World Honored One said the following verse
"Knowing that all actions are impermanent, and that they are all permutable, I say that all sufferings are suffering"

That is kinda it. Sutta ends there, no further mention of a body, makes sense since it belongs to Vedana Samyutta. It is a teaching on feelings, not bodies. This is also not the only instance in Vedana Samyutta, where Theravada monks authenticated their abhidhamma, by their fake add ons.

• Once they interpreted the body in the first establishment of mindfulness as a physical body, a large part of the canon was infiltrated by that notion.

• So much so that if someone points out the truth, no one believes it. Such is the indomitable force of the Theravada abhidhamma.

While a passage corresponding to the authentic sutta is found in the Pali sutta, SN 36.11, it is loaded with stuff that the Theravadins forced into an original MulaSarvastivada creation, the portions of the sutta you used to praise Buddha. 

The audacity of the Theravada monks to feed lies into the mouth of Buddha! Personally I find it unpardonable. Are they not misleading a gullible public by bringing in things into sutta pitaka that Buddha never taught?
Your comment tells me you are reaffirming the above, vigorously. The tragedy is Theravada abhidhammikas, and their tampering with the sutta pitaka lead to a whole tradition of meditation, found in the VSM, which does not reflect Buddha Dhamma. 
As SN 36.11 shows us, Pali Nikaya is a collection of Buddha's teachings plus teachings of the Theravada elders. On many occasions the two are welded together as in SN 36.11.

• A clever way of camouflaging the original teaching!

Once V. Sujato used "Piltdown man" to describe Mahasatipatthana sutta. it is defined as "a fake constructed from a human cranium and the jawbone of an orangutan" Taking V. Sujato's definition of these kinds of suttas a step further in order to understand the suttas so constructed, we need the expert on the human and the expert on the orangutan to make sense of these suttas. Many claim that without the help of Abhidhamma and commentaries, Buddha's part of the skull cannot be understood, or detected.
With love 

[S. Johann]

To calm down (passaddha-ing)... Maybe useful to investigate forwardly: calm (-down) has heal as it's effect, heal to concentrated, walk forth, on.

[Pulsar]

Auto wrote

here we could again read maybe it means physical body,

A whole tradition of meditation built on a maybe????
you continued

but it means mind produced corporeality.

What does that mean to you?
Does it mean a physical body? or images and sounds and smells that result from physical bodies, that make an appearance in the mind?
With love

[auto]

Auto wrote

here we could again read maybe it means physical body,

A whole tradition of meditation built on a maybe????
you continued

but it means mind produced corporeality.

What does that mean to you?
Does it mean a physical body? or images and sounds and smells that result from physical bodies, that make an appearance in the mind?
With love

Mind produced corporality - i think it is "a choice what is instigated by oneself" or by others etc.
After that you have kamma in you, and can use some kind of image to condition pleasure and pain to arise internally. Pleasure is bodily regardless if it is bodily, verbal or mental sankhara, still it is bodily and the pain is absence of pleasure.

By oneself one instigates the choice that gives rise to bodily, verbal, and mental action, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself.
Sāmaṁ vā taṁ, ānanda, kāyasaṅkhāraṁ abhisaṅkharoti, yaṁpaccayāssa taṁ uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhadukkhaṁ.

Pali-Dictionary Vipassana Research Institute
abhisaṅkharoti：To prepare，to form，to effect，to perfect

I think what frankk does is that he takes his meditation experience and applies it to what Sutta is meaning, at the same time ignoring any possibility that the descriptions what are more detailed are also correct enough to make progress or cause some stuff to arise.

Now this morning I did my first meditation in a long time, only 10 minutes. As soon as I took a couple of breaths and realized I didn't have to do or be anything for the next couple of minutes, I was struck by this incredible sense of relaxation and restfulness. This sense of relaxation stayed with me during the meditation as I tried to keep it in the awareness that lies behind the focus on the breath.

[frank k]

https://lucid24.org/agama/sa/sa0500/sa0474/index.html
SA 474 is the parallel to SN 36.11, not 473.
It matches up pretty closely with the pali, minus the 6 passaddhi's.
That tells me the EBT Theravada (as opposed to LBT Theravada redefining 'body' in jhana as 'not a body but a mind'), deliberately put the 6 passadhis there to clarify the meaning of 'kaya'.

It's impossible, unless you have very accurate psychic powers and can see what actually happened 2500 years ago, to say exactly what is the Buddha's words. But from how SN 36.11 is preserved, blatantly contracted by LBT Theravada in Vism., tells you there was a time there were heretics trying to redefine kaya/body as 'mind, not body', and that the EBT Theravadins of that time laid down the law and said, "no, the Buddha used a consistent dictionary and kaya means 'body'". I have no problem with redactors adding material to clarify and preserve meaning when heretics are trying to distort and corrupt genuine EBT. The fact that the Agamas don't have the 6 passadhis, just tells you their EBT school didn't have those heretics at that time, until their later Abhidharma schools came along.


What it comes down to, is using the consistent EBT dictionary, there is coherence, all the jhana suttas on body, thought, make sense all the way through. With LBT Theravada's crooked dictionary, such as the one Sujato shares in common on the jhana and samadhi portion, you get incoherence in the suttas. They start to contradict each other and not make any sense. That is why you know you have to reject Sujato, Ajahn Brahm, and Vism's redefinition of jhana. It's like you have 50 suttas, most say 2 + 2 = 4, but then 5 of the most crucial suttas say 2+ 2 = 5. Incoherent, must reject, obvious work of heretics rewriting the scriptures for a gullible public.

frank k wrote

What's amazing about the suttas is once you really understand the LBT Theravada misinformation that's commonly fed to the public, you realize the Buddha used words in plain language describing things simply, clearly, accurately, like you would expect a great teacher to do.

Are you referring to SN 36.11? Do you think all the words in SN 36.11 are Buddha's words?

When you get a chance pl. check out SA 473, its Agama parallel. I don't have the time to respond today,
but will do so tomorrow.
Unless I got the numbers wrong??
Regards
PS grateful to V. Sujato who realized the value of making agama versions of Pali suttas available
to the public.

[frank k]

...
I think what frankk does is that he takes his meditation experience and applies it to what Sutta is meaning, at the same time ignoring any possibility that the descriptions what are more detailed are also correct enough to make progress or cause some stuff to arise.

Now this morning I did my first meditation in a long time, only 10 minutes. As soon as I took a couple of breaths and realized I didn't have to do or be anything for the next couple of minutes, I was struck by this incredible sense of relaxation and restfulness. This sense of relaxation stayed with me during the meditation as I tried to keep it in the awareness that lies behind the focus on the breath.

That is not me describing my meditation. I'm quoting someone from a forum describing THEIR meditation.
The link to the thread that I quote from is right there for you to click on.
And the context for that thread is limited to physical passaddhi, not the full on jhana experience.

I do talk plenty about my meditation experience elsewhere, and have justfied in detail how it matches up with a coherent and consistent jhana lexicon.

I'm not ignoring the possibility, in fact I openly acknowledge there are plenty of samadhi training systems that can develop similar qualities to the Buddha's EBT 4 jhana system. But Vism., LBT Abhidhamma, and Ajahn Brahm are nothing like the Buddha's EBT. They may have their strengths and interesting features, but IMO far more weaknesses and problems, compared to the Buddha. By all means people who like Ajahn Brahm or Vism's meditation training system, go ahead and praise it. But don't deceive yourself and others by claiming the EBT is teaching the same meditation system.

[Ceisiwr]

These rants really are tiresome.

[Pulsar]

frank k wrote

SA 474 is the parallel to SN 36.11, not 473.

Pl take a look again at the parallels on sutta central page.

• Do you not see SA 473 at the top of the list?

SA 474 is a more elaborate version given below that, more stuff added to SA 473.... later influences within
Sarvastivada.

• Suttas were compiled of fragments of Buddha's teachings floating around.

These fragments were elaborated by later abhidhamikas as they chose.
To me the parallel at the top of the list i.e. SA 473 clearly looks the most
authentic based on above information.
Thanks for bringing up SN 36.11 for this discussion. Just shows the lengths to which Theravadin abhidhammikas resorted to prove their version of the teaching. Check out SN 36.19 too, its parallel is SA 485, notice how dissimilar they are. The Pali version imports Arupas, the Chinese version has no mention of Arupas...
It ends with

"Yudhishthira! There are four kinds of bliss. What are these four? The four kinds of bliss are: the bliss of freedom from desire,
the bliss of distance,
the bliss of silence, and the bliss of bodhi.

A beautiful way to describe the 4 establishments of mindfulness and the resulting Buddhist jhana in a nutshell.
Beginning with MN 111 or ending with MN 111, there was a relentless effort within Vibajjavadins to import non-buddhist meditations into the canon. Visuddhimagga is the ultimate example. In there one finds all the meditations practiced in India, without the help of Buddha.
The influence of VSM and Arupas is so powerful that some Buddhists claim there is no difference in buddhist meditation and those that prevailed in India before Buddha.
Can you explain to me why DN 22 is called a fraudulent sutta? Perhaps that explanation will shed some light, on the first establishment of mindfulness.
Regards

[auto]

But don't deceive yourself and others by claiming the EBT is teaching the same meditation system.

Unless you reread abhidhamma on the points what you seem can't agree on or find in disagreement with Sutta, nothing will change.

That tells me the EBT Theravada (as opposed to LBT Theravada redefining 'body' in jhana as 'not a body but a mind'), deliberately put the 6 passadhis there to clarify the meaning of 'kaya'.

You do realize that Pulsar says the opposite that the abhidhamma is making kaya to be physical and it is mental in Sutta? both you dislike abhidhamma but claim opposite things.

[asahi]

"kaya" is something sensed that is derived from physical elements, it is a mental thing, but the tradition understood it to be physical bodies. I do not. Do i make sense to you?

If kaya is a mental thing , Buddha called it citta or nama . SN46.42 does refers kayapassaddhi as physical sense , the mental aspect is cittapassaddhi . No need to emphasize twice the mental aspect .

When the tradition interpreted the first establishment of mindfulness to be the physical body?? (although SN 47.42 did not), it changed the way people approached meditation.

SN47.42 does implied kaya to be physical , otherwise , it would be nama or citta .

[Pulsar]

Dear asahi: Let us take a look at SN 46.42,
The Blessed One said,

"And what, monks, is the origination of the body?  From the origination of nutriment is the origination of the body.
From the cessation of nutriment is the subsiding of the body"

Where in the sutta is Buddha referring to a physical body? All he says is body/kaya/rupa.
Based on your take, let us interpret the above:

"From the cessation of nutriment is the subsiding of the body"

If you stop eating lunch, dinner, or say stay away from food for a day, does your body subside/vanish?

Just to help out with the above, let us look at the 3rd establishment

"From the origination of name-&-form is the origination of the mind. From the cessation of name-&-form is the cessation of the mind"

How do you understand form/rupa/body in this instance?
Regards

[Pulsar]

Dear asahi: let me try to answer your question with the help of a sutta.
Using SN 22.100, I shall try to explain why first establishment is not about a physical body.
Mulasarvastivada versions SA 267 is easier to handle. It is not influenced by Theravada abhidhamma. Buddha's teachings can be found in a purer form here.
To summarize SA 267, (to elaborate, when I use my thought, I use italics) 

Mind is as complicated as the variegated colors of a bird. Contemplate carefully, pay attention. Defiled by all kinds of greed, hatred, and ignorance, all night, the mind is annoyed. Annoyed mind becomes a furious painter. Painters paint with various colors, various forms, they paint images at will,

this particular painter can incorporate sound, smell, taste and touch to the painting, the painting is multi dimensional.
returning to text:

Because foolish beings do not know the danger of forms, they collect form, thrive on form.

 How does the mind know what to paint? The mind is a magician, sound, touch, smell etc. can be retrieved at the speed of lightning or more, instantaneously. It is called mental proliferation, or papanca. 

Mind delights in forms.

Form or rupa is not limited to things seen by the eye.
Remember there are 6 sense bases. Different forms are born at the different sense bases, ie the form of the ear is the sound. Form of the tongue is the taste.
Once the magic painter paints a painting, it only intensifies craving.

Lust makes one grasp the painted forms, a process of discimination ensues.

The contact (phassa) and the naming involved leads to feeling, the second foundation/station, of mindfulness.
People find delight in retrieved forms and sounds. They find solace in a past form, scent of a woman, the touch of a child, sound of a baby, or a fragment of memory.
Can mental images, sounds, remembered feel of a touch, a smell, taste, or a fragment of memory be solid?

• They are derived from solid things, but images, sounds, smells, the remembered feel of a touched thing, or the fragment of memory themselves are not solid.

Theravada abhidhamma made a big error by defining rupa as solid, and an entire tradition of meditation grew around that single misunderstanding.
People meditated on bodies and corpses. People believed what their teachers told them. These teachers acted according to the dictates of the tradition.
With love

[asahi]

Using SN 22.100, I shall try to explain why first establishment is not about a physical body.
Mulasarvastivada versions SA 267 is easier to handle.

Hi Pulsar , if you refers to SA 267 , it describes the rupa in the context of five aggregates . Thus , rupa here is to be regarded as materiality and form .
If you are speaking of four establishment ,
mindfulness of the body, feelings, mind, and dhammas . The kaya here could be referring to 《group or collection》, kāyānupassī could be referring to contemplating of the physicality (body) .
If the kaya means 《mind》then it can be grouped under 《citta》category .

It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ;