Gross to the subtle nature of the Buddha's teaching?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Gross to the subtle nature of the Buddha's teaching?

Post by SarathW »

Gross to the subtle nature of the Buddha's teaching?
I have noticed that the teaching of Buddha is based on the moving from gross to the subtle nature of our existence.
For instance, Buddhism teacher Rupa in the sense of gross nature and subtle nature.
The way I see it most of the other religions pay attention to the gross nature of our existence.
However, Buddha teaches the subtle nature of our existence however he first talks about the gross nature to the beginner.
In my opinion, most of the arguments about Buddhists are due to not understanding this difference.
Many Buddhist understand only the gross nature of existence.
Some who realise the subtle nature criticise the people who know only the gross nature.
In my opinion, they both are correct but they are on a different level of the path.

Another way to see this is the gradual nature of the Buddha's teaching

I like to know your opinion and you can post some examples of Sutta if you come across them to support my thesis.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Gross to the subtle nature of the Buddha's teaching?

Post by form »

Yea. Noble Silence please. :mrgreen:
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Gross to the subtle nature of the Buddha's teaching?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I think most religions claim that they've insight into the "subtle layers of reality" as opposed to the coarse outer appearance. Hindus will claim that there is a coarse outer manifestation in the form of maya, but that there is a true subtle reality in the form of Brahman or some other modality of prakrti. Christians will claim that beyond the coarse world of materiality there are immaterial angels, immaterial demons, and even an immaterial God. The Daodejing differentiates between the named outer forms, which give birth to "ten thousand things," and the unnamed internal essence which is "the wellspring of heaven and earth." "Ten thousand things" and "heaven and earth" are two expressions referring to the same thing: namely "everything." So lots of religious discourses have this metaphysical division.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
pegembara
Posts: 3454
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Gross to the subtle nature of the Buddha's teaching?

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:37 pm Gross to the subtle nature of the Buddha's teaching?
I have noticed that the teaching of Buddha is based on the moving from gross to the subtle nature of our existence.
For instance, Buddhism teacher Rupa in the sense of gross nature and subtle nature.
The way I see it most of the other religions pay attention to the gross nature of our existence.
However, Buddha teaches the subtle nature of our existence however he first talks about the gross nature to the beginner.
In my opinion, most of the arguments about Buddhists are due to not understanding this difference.
Many Buddhist understand only the gross nature of existence.
Some who realise the subtle nature criticise the people who know only the gross nature.
In my opinion, they both are correct but they are on a different level of the path.

Another way to see this is the gradual nature of the Buddha's teaching

I like to know your opinion and you can post some examples of Sutta if you come across them to support my thesis.
Take a look at this.
"Not to associate with the foolish,[5] but to associate with the wise; and to honor those who are worthy of honor — this is the greatest blessing.

To reside in a suitable locality,[6] to have done meritorious actions in the past and to set oneself in the right course[7] — this is the greatest blessing.

To have much learning, to be skillful in handicraft,[8] well-trained in discipline,[9] and to be of good speech[10] — this is the greatest blessing.

To support mother and father, to cherish wife and children, and to be engaged in peaceful occupation — this is the greatest blessing.

To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct,[11] to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action — this is the greatest blessing.

To loathe more evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants,[12] and to be steadfast in virtue — this is the greatest blessing.

To be respectful,[13] humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions[14] — this is the greatest blessing.

To be patient and obedient, to associate with monks and to have religious discussions on due occasions — this is the greatest blessing.

Self-restraint,[15] a holy and chaste life, the perception of the Noble Truths and the realisation of Nibbana — this is the greatest blessing.

A mind unruffled by the vagaries of fortune,[16] from sorrow freed, from defilements cleansed, from fear liberated[17] — this is the greatest blessing.

Those who thus abide, ever remain invincible, in happiness established. These are the greatest blessings."[18]

"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.

"For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.

"For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May rapture arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.



"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

"For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.

"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

"In this way, dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward.

"In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Jack19990101
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: Gross to the subtle nature of the Buddha's teaching?

Post by Jack19990101 »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:37 pm Gross to the subtle nature of the Buddha's teaching?
I have noticed that the teaching of Buddha is based on the moving from gross to the subtle nature of our existence.
For instance, Buddhism teacher Rupa in the sense of gross nature and subtle nature.
The way I see it most of the other religions pay attention to the gross nature of our existence.
However, Buddha teaches the subtle nature of our existence however he first talks about the gross nature to the beginner.
In my opinion, most of the arguments about Buddhists are due to not understanding this difference.
Many Buddhist understand only the gross nature of existence.
Some who realise the subtle nature criticise the people who know only the gross nature.
In my opinion, they both are correct but they are on a different level of the path.

Another way to see this is the gradual nature of the Buddha's teaching

I like to know your opinion and you can post some examples of Sutta if you come across them to support my thesis.
yeah, think so too.
Example is the 4 themes of sati. Satipatthana Sutta.
Body/feeling/citta/Dhamma, it is getting finer sequentially.
Joe.c
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Gross to the subtle nature of the Buddha's teaching?

Post by Joe.c »

Please reread DN 9. It is relevant to your questions i think.
Poṭṭhapāda, from the time a mendicant here takes responsibility for their own perception, they proceed from one stage to the next, gradually reaching the peak of perception. Standing on the peak of perception they think, ‘Intentionality is bad for me, it’s better to be free of it. For if I were to intend and choose, these perceptions would cease in me, and other coarser perceptions would arise. Why don’t I neither make a choice nor form an intention?’ They neither make a choice nor form an intention. Those perceptions cease in them, and other coarser perceptions don’t arise. They touch cessation. And that, Poṭṭhapāda, is how the gradual cessation of perception is attained with awareness.
I teach the Dhamma for the giving up of these three kinds of existences.
Only in human realm you can experience all these existences. Hence it is possible to be free from all three.

Same as awakening level. From coarse to finer.

From
1. common folk - still can go to any realms. Doesn’t know drawback of lower realms. Most go to lower realms.
2. Sotapanna - perfect morality & know drawback of lower realm - only go to human & sensual pleasure heavens.
3. Non returner - never come back to this world. Know drawback of the sensual realms.
4. Arahant - fully understand all existence.

Hence the process is gradual.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Post Reply