What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

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tamdrin
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What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by tamdrin »

As I understand it, non-returners (I think ) are reborn in the pure abodes. What is the nature of these abodes and are there any textual sources describing them?

Thanks!
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

There are few references as I understand unless monks had attained the Divine eye to view and describe them.

The Buddha spoke from experience saying "there are no realms I have not been to in this long round of samsara except for the planes of the pure abodes, and if I had been born there I would never again have returned from those worlds".

I personally regard them as the highest deva planes since they are connected irreversibly to Nibbana, which cannot be said about birth in any other world. Conventionally though the formless realms associated with the arupa meditations are ranked higher having the longest lifespans even though one may fall from them after this.

Another thing to note is the vast, incomprehensible time frames of these realms.
The lowest pure abode is the Aviha realm of which the lifespan is 1000 MahaKalpas

Depending on calculations a single mahakalpa is estimated to be the age of a galaxy so about 30 billion years although I have seen some estimates even longer in the range of 300 billion years +
Last edited by Cause_and_Effect on Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
santa100
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by santa100 »

tamdrin wrote:As I understand it, non-returners (I think ) are reborn in the pure abodes. What is the nature of these abodes and are there any textual sources describing them?
Some info. on the Suddhāvāsā
tamdrin
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by tamdrin »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:56 pm There are few references as I understand unless monks had attained the Divine eye to view and describe them.

The Buddha spoke from experience saying "there are no realms I have not been to in this long round of samsara except for the planes of the pure abodes, and if I had been born there I would never again have returned from those worlds".

I personally regard them as the highest deva planes since they are connected irreversibly to Nibbana, which cannot be said about birth in any other world. Conventionally though the formless realms associated with the arupa meditations are ranked higher having the longest lifespans even though one may fall from them after this.

Another thing to note is the vast, incomprehensible time frames of these realms.
The lowest pure abode is the Aviha realm of which the lifespan is 1000 MahaKalpas

Depending on calculations a single mahakalpa is estimated to be the age of a galaxy so about 30 billion years although I have seen some estimates even longer in the range of 300 billion years +
That must be because the pure abodes are only for people following the path to arahantship, but impossible for the bodhisattvas destined for buddhahood. Thanks for sharing.
BrokenBones
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by BrokenBones »

santa100 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:10 pm
tamdrin wrote:As I understand it, non-returners (I think ) are reborn in the pure abodes. What is the nature of these abodes and are there any textual sources describing them?
Some info. on the Suddhāvāsā
This is the problem with commentaries... sometimes they are blatantly illogical.

Apparently the Suddhāvāsā are sometimes empty for trillions of years because no Buddha has arisen yet they are the ones who foretell a future buddhas characteristics and provide the four omens in the bodhisatta's last birth 🤔
asahi
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by asahi »

Does this means only pure abodes have dhamma practioners and no other deva practice dhamma in kamaloka , rupaloka n arupaloka ?
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tamdrin
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by tamdrin »

asahi wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:15 am Does this means only pure abodes have dhamma practioners and no other deva practice dhamma in kamaloka , rupaloka n arupaloka ?
No, of course not. Devas in other deva worlds practice as their kamma allows them, depends on how they practiced previously (I imagine).
dharmacorps
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by dharmacorps »

Nobody can tell you anything about these realms, because nobody is reborn from these realms by definition. It was the only realm the Buddha had not been re-born in, for example.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by Ceisiwr »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:38 pm Nobody can tell you anything about these realms, because nobody is reborn from these realms by definition. It was the only realm the Buddha had not been re-born in, for example.
Well, Buddhas can. This realm like the realm of no perception can only be known by Buddhas, somehow.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:15 am
santa100 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:10 pm
tamdrin wrote:As I understand it, non-returners (I think ) are reborn in the pure abodes. What is the nature of these abodes and are there any textual sources describing them?
Some info. on the Suddhāvāsā
This is the problem with commentaries... sometimes they are blatantly illogical.

Apparently the Suddhāvāsā are sometimes empty for trillions of years because no Buddha has arisen yet they are the ones who foretell a future buddhas characteristics and provide the four omens in the bodhisatta's last birth 🤔
Well the concept isn’t commentarial.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
BrokenBones
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:55 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:15 am
santa100 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:10 pm
Some info. on the Suddhāvāsā
This is the problem with commentaries... sometimes they are blatantly illogical.

Apparently the Suddhāvāsā are sometimes empty for trillions of years because no Buddha has arisen yet they are the ones who foretell a future buddhas characteristics and provide the four omens in the bodhisatta's last birth 🤔
Well the concept isn’t commentarial.
I can't find the idea of the empty abodes being vacant.
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Rambutan
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by Rambutan »

tamdrin wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:31 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:56 pm There are few references as I understand unless monks had attained the Divine eye to view and describe them.

The Buddha spoke from experience saying "there are no realms I have not been to in this long round of samsara except for the planes of the pure abodes, and if I had been born there I would never again have returned from those worlds".

I personally regard them as the highest deva planes since they are connected irreversibly to Nibbana, which cannot be said about birth in any other world. Conventionally though the formless realms associated with the arupa meditations are ranked higher having the longest lifespans even though one may fall from them after this.

Another thing to note is the vast, incomprehensible time frames of these realms.
The lowest pure abode is the Aviha realm of which the lifespan is 1000 MahaKalpas

Depending on calculations a single mahakalpa is estimated to be the age of a galaxy so about 30 billion years although I have seen some estimates even longer in the range of 300 billion years +
That must be because the pure abodes are only for people following the path to arahantship, but impossible for the bodhisattvas destined for buddhahood. Thanks for sharing.
Conversely, mahayanists maintain that pure abodes are realms established by Buddhas (A deva realm would still be a samsaric realm and thus not pure) hence open to bodhisattvas.
Disciple
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by Disciple »

Rambutan wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:01 am
tamdrin wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:31 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:56 pm There are few references as I understand unless monks had attained the Divine eye to view and describe them.

The Buddha spoke from experience saying "there are no realms I have not been to in this long round of samsara except for the planes of the pure abodes, and if I had been born there I would never again have returned from those worlds".

I personally regard them as the highest deva planes since they are connected irreversibly to Nibbana, which cannot be said about birth in any other world. Conventionally though the formless realms associated with the arupa meditations are ranked higher having the longest lifespans even though one may fall from them after this.

Another thing to note is the vast, incomprehensible time frames of these realms.
The lowest pure abode is the Aviha realm of which the lifespan is 1000 MahaKalpas

Depending on calculations a single mahakalpa is estimated to be the age of a galaxy so about 30 billion years although I have seen some estimates even longer in the range of 300 billion years +
That must be because the pure abodes are only for people following the path to arahantship, but impossible for the bodhisattvas destined for buddhahood. Thanks for sharing.
Conversely, mahayanists maintain that pure abodes are realms established by Buddhas (A deva realm would still be a samsaric realm and thus not pure) hence open to bodhisattvas.
Pure abodes are samsaric realms and aren't established by buddhas. On the other hand pure lands/Buddha fields such as sukhavati are established by buddhas for bodhisattvas to go to for training. They are outside samsara.
pegembara
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by pegembara »

Divine abidings(brahmaviharas) are how enlightened beings live in and engage with the world.

Metta, Karuna, Mudita and Upekkha

http://www.suttas.com/four-sublime-abod ... ihara.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: What is the nature of the "pure abodes"?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Disciple wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:12 am Pure abodes are samsaric realms
It seems to me the Pure abodes are somewhat different.
They are 'samsaric realms' to the extent that one can pass away and be reborn in a higher pure abode realm. However they are 'outside samsara' to the extent that one cannot fall from them into any other world and for all inhabitants the destination is only Nibbana.

They could maybe be described as 'Gateway to Nibbana worlds'.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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