Layman Arahant

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by tiltbillings »

jcsuperstar wrote: i would doubt most any one's claim to any sort of attainment, in fact many of the people around here who say ajahn so&so is an arahant or whatever doesn't really do anything for me.
It is one thing that a claim is made of someone by students of that person. It can be seen as a recognition of that person's life as being an expression of the Dhamma, which is really far more meaningful than the claim of ariya status itself.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by DNS »

From another topic:
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:51 pm I’m not aware of any sutta case where a layman becomes an Arahant and then joined the sangha? I think there might be a sutta where a layman did fully awaken and then died. On the whole, without nearly instantly dying, laymen can’t become Arahants. The heretical idea of laymen becoming Arahants was rejected by the Theravādins at the 3rd council. Therefore, it must be rejected.
Yassa, was a layman who attained full enlightenment, an arahant and then ordained.

Lay arahant
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by Ceisiwr »

DNS wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:29 am From another topic:
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:51 pm I’m not aware of any sutta case where a layman becomes an Arahant and then joined the sangha? I think there might be a sutta where a layman did fully awaken and then died. On the whole, without nearly instantly dying, laymen can’t become Arahants. The heretical idea of laymen becoming Arahants was rejected by the Theravādins at the 3rd council. Therefore, it must be rejected.
Yassa, was a layman who attained full enlightenment, an arahant and then ordained.

Lay arahant
I don’t see a link to the sutta there?
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:41 am I don’t see a link to the sutta there?
Vinaya...

"However, Bhikkhu Bodhi notes at least one case mentioned in the Pali Canon of a lay person attaining enlightenment, that of Yasa who ordained shortly thereafter. (Vin I 17,1–3)"

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Layman Arahant

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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by Ceisiwr »

So one layman who instantly became an Arahant after hearing the Dhamma from the Blessed One himself, whom then ordained him without the rule on being human. This does not support the idea that layfolk today can become Arahants today. Neither does it support the idea that the rule against non-humans does not apply to the Arahants.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by DNS »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:54 am So one layman who instantly became an Arahant after hearing the Dhamma from the Blessed One himself, whom then ordained him without the rule on being human. This does not support the idea that layfolk today can become Arahants today. Neither does it support the idea that the rule against non-humans does not apply to the Arahants.
If you accept Commentaries, there is also:

http://aimwell.org/DPPN/uggasena.html

And:

The Milindapanha mentions by implication that lay people can attain full enlightenment:

"If a layman attains arahant-ship, only two destinations await him; either he must enter the Order that very day or else he must attain parinibbàna"

Milindapanha III.19

"You say that if a layman attains arahantship he must either enter the Order that very day or die and attainparinibbàna. Yet if he is unable to find a robe and bowl and preceptor then that exalted condition of arahantship is a waste, for destruction of life is involved in it."

"The fault does not lie with arahantship but with the state of a layman, because it is too weak to support arahantship. Just as, O king, although food protects the life of beings it will take away the life of one whose digestion is weak; so too, if a layman attains arahantship he must, because of the weakness of that condition, enter the Order that very day or die."
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by confusedlayman »

DNS wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:01 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:54 am So one layman who instantly became an Arahant after hearing the Dhamma from the Blessed One himself, whom then ordained him without the rule on being human. This does not support the idea that layfolk today can become Arahants today. Neither does it support the idea that the rule against non-humans does not apply to the Arahants.
If you accept Commentaries, there is also:

http://aimwell.org/DPPN/uggasena.html

And:

The Milindapanha mentions by implication that lay people can attain full enlightenment:

"If a layman attains arahant-ship, only two destinations await him; either he must enter the Order that very day or else he must attain parinibbàna"

Milindapanha III.19

"You say that if a layman attains arahantship he must either enter the Order that very day or die and attainparinibbàna. Yet if he is unable to find a robe and bowl and preceptor then that exalted condition of arahantship is a waste, for destruction of life is involved in it."

"The fault does not lie with arahantship but with the state of a layman, because it is too weak to support arahantship. Just as, O king, although food protects the life of beings it will take away the life of one whose digestion is weak; so too, if a layman attains arahantship he must, because of the weakness of that condition, enter the Order that very day or die."
what weakness? knowing the truth (impermanence, nonself) doesnt affect body organs and lead to physical death

even if one want to not eat food, he wont die same day

even if one dont do volitational action, then how come one can do volitational action (like teaching ) in monkhood?

I dont understand...
dont think
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by Inedible »

It has been a while since I read the story and I can't recall the details. There were two young brothers who learned to practice from a monk. They both quickly attained the jhanas and worked to become Arhats. It was decided that they had succeeded and both were immediately ordained monks also to protect them from dying quickly afterward. They joined the monastery and there was a great deal of local pride because of their rapid success. But then one of them developed health problems and was in need of surgery to correct the issue. He was not aware that this would be done under anesthesia and he became visibly afraid. It was at this point that it became clear that the two brothers probably still had a lot of work to do. Which is to say, how would a person who lived as a layman be able to be sure of having attained to the status of Arhat when it is so easy to get it wrong? Other than dying right away. That could end up being like cancer in the sense that so many people go to the doctor and are diagnosed and given only so long to live. It can happen that they die on schedule only for the autopsy to show they were misdiagnosed.
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by confusedlayman »

Inedible wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:05 pm It has been a while since I read the story and I can't recall the details. There were two young brothers who learned to practice from a monk. They both quickly attained the jhanas and worked to become Arhats. It was decided that they had succeeded and both were immediately ordained monks also to protect them from dying quickly afterward. They joined the monastery and there was a great deal of local pride because of their rapid success. But then one of them developed health problems and was in need of surgery to correct the issue. He was not aware that this would be done under anesthesia and he became visibly afraid. It was at this point that it became clear that the two brothers probably still had a lot of work to do. Which is to say, how would a person who lived as a layman be able to be sure of having attained to the status of Arhat when it is so easy to get it wrong? Other than dying right away. That could end up being like cancer in the sense that so many people go to the doctor and are diagnosed and given only so long to live. It can happen that they die on schedule only for the autopsy to show they were misdiagnosed.
arhant can develop 8 jhanas and nirodha in same day if he wants, he can be able to explain dependent origination in and out... he wont suffer in mind even a nano second of stress coz he dont cling to anything

arhant will truely shine in community of non arhants
dont think
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Re: Layman Arahant

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confusedlayman wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:45 am what weakness? knowing the truth (impermanence, nonself) doesnt affect body organs and lead to physical death
An arahant would lose interest in the worldly pursuits of being a layman. It's not that he's physically unable, but would not have any interest. So he would ordain within 7 days or pass away in that time. He doesn't have to die, he could ordain within that time and still live for some years after that. He would seek ordination, but might die in the meantime, not that becoming an arahant makes your organs disintegrate, necessarily.

Imagine a layman working in a worldly career, receiving orders from a superior, getting scolded, doing various duties or if he is the supervisor, giving out orders and scolding others. An arahant would have no interest in such worldly pursuits, so I think the Commentary declaration of ordaining in 7 days makes sense.
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by Inedible »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:30 pm arhant will truly shine in community of non arhants
This is true if you can find a real Arhat. Unfortunately it is common for the label to be given when it hasn't been earned. It isn't intentional deception.
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

DNS wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:13 pm Commentary declaration of ordaining in 7 days makes sense.
Commentaries are the opium of the masses.
–Kærl Marqs
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by SDC »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:10 pm
DNS wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:13 pm Commentary declaration of ordaining in 7 days makes sense.
Commentaries are the opium of the masses.
–Kærl Marqs
You do realize that the writings and talks of Ven. Thanissaro and Ven.Vimalaramsi are also commentaries?
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

SDC wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:46 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:10 pm
DNS wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:13 pm Commentary declaration of ordaining in 7 days makes sense.
Commentaries are the opium of the masses.
–Kærl Marqs
You do realize that the writings and talks of Ven. Thanissaro and Ven.Vimalaramsi are also commentaries?
Yes.
It was a joke. :oops:
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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