The group 5 aggregates which we conventionally refer to as the "arhat" has become nirvana-ized.after all, if an arhat ends what arhat reaches the nirvana?
Or not?
The group 5 aggregates which we conventionally refer to as the "arhat" has become nirvana-ized.after all, if an arhat ends what arhat reaches the nirvana?
Frankly, it's as simple as thatPeterB wrote:Semantics.
He died.
We have a description of that event.
yes he died.. he died so well there was not a single bit of craving left.PeterB wrote:We have a description of that event.
the party line is that yes they do become nirvanaizedKenshou wrote:The group 5 aggregates which we conventionally refer to as the "arhat" has become nirvana-ized. Or not?
im amazed that that is what you saw implied. can you explain your reasoning?Kenshou wrote:Just because there is no "atta" does not mean that there are no choices or actions or intentions. Just that actions and intentions are dependently originated.
When wisdom is mature self-identification is abandoned. But that doesn't mean that the ability to do things is abandoned with it.
cannot give an accurate idea of the origin of earthquakeswhat did he say about it?
Mahaparinibbana Sutta
Then the Blessed One said: "There are eight reasons, Ananda, eight causes for a mighty earthquake to arise. What are those eight?
"This great earth, Ananda, is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. And when, Ananda, mighty atmospheric disturbances take place, the liquid is agitated. And with the agitation of the liquid, tremors of the earth arise. This is the first reason, the first cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.
"Again, Ananda, when an ascetic or holy man of great power, one who has gained mastery of his mind, or a deity who is mighty and potent, develops intense concentration on the delimited aspect of the earth element, and to a boundless degree on the liquid element, he, too, causes the earth to tremble, quiver, and shake. This is the second reason, the second cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.
"Again, Ananda, when the Bodhisatta departs from the Tusita realm and descends into his mother's womb, mindfully and clearly comprehending;
and when the Bodhisatta comes out from his mother's womb, mindfully and clearly comprehending;
and when the Tathagata becomes fully enlightened in unsurpassed, Supreme Enlightenment;
when the Tathagata sets rolling the excellent Wheel of the Dhamma;
when the Tathagata renounces his will to live on;
and when the Tathagata comes to pass away into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains —
then, too, Ananda, this great earth trembles, quivers, and shakes.
"These, Ananda, are the eight reasons, the eight causes for a great earthquake to arise.
Not really.Sunrise wrote:Frankly, it's as simple as thatPeterB wrote:Semantics.
He died.
We have a description of that event.
Actually he is correct about everything but speaks in a language that will be understandable for ancient indians.He is quite clearly talking of a different order of reality to that described by science
He was clearly right - because tectonic plates are based on a liquid magma and that is why these tectonic plates move and float here and there, causing earthquakes.So if we take this literally the Buddha was quite clearly wrong..this great earth is NOT established upon liquid. Or in other translations water..
So there is no liquid/water to become agitated by any physical or supernatural cause..
We know that earthquakes are caused by shifts in the earths tectonic plates..
Whatever. He died. You can blame poor old long suffering Ananda all you like ( or whoever complied the Suttas a long time after the event can blame Ananda.) He died. Fact.Sherab wrote:Not really.Sunrise wrote:Frankly, it's as simple as thatPeterB wrote:Semantics.
He died.
We have a description of that event.
See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
53. Then the Venerable Ananda said: "This, O Lord, I have heard and learned from the Blessed One himself when the Blessed One said to me: 'Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it.'"
was not to be invented
54. "And did you believe it, Ananda?"
"Yes, O Lord, I did."
"Then, Ananda, the fault is yours. Herein have you failed, inasmuch as you were unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting given by the Tathagata, and you did not then entreat the Tathagata to remain. For if you had done so, Ananda, twice the Tathagata might have declined, but the third time he would have consented. Therefore, Ananda, the fault is yours; herein have you failed.
55. "At Rajagaha, Ananda, when dwelling at Vultures' Peak, I spoke to you, saying: 'Pleasant, Ananda, is Rajagaha; pleasant is Vultures' Peak. Whosoever, Ananda, has developed... Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it.'
oh.. yes the elements are bizarre if taken literally (ie. earth = dirt)plwk wrote:"There are eight reasons, Ananda
they were never described literally, they were always described as the fundamental building blocks of matter (ultimates) and every object contains all of the elements.PeterB wrote:OR bend the simple meaning of words to make them fit the case
well we say stuff like "the cup broke".Kenshou wrote:Could you explain more precisely what you mean by "but how do they cause the end of themselves when they need to be around to cause it?"
But that is not what he says Zom. He says the earth is established on liquid which is established on the atmosphere which is established on space. So he is talking not about the interior of the planet..he is talking about the planet being established on liquid. And he is wrong.Zom wrote:Actually he is correct about everything but speaks in a language that will be understandable for ancient indians.He is quite clearly talking of a different order of reality to that described by science
He was clearly right - because tectonic plates are based on a liquid magma and that is why these tectonic plates move and float here and there, causing earthquakes.So if we take this literally the Buddha was quite clearly wrong..this great earth is NOT established upon liquid. Or in other translations water..
So there is no liquid/water to become agitated by any physical or supernatural cause..
We know that earthquakes are caused by shifts in the earths tectonic plates..
It is not too wise to think that "4 elements" are physical water, soil, atmospheric wind and wood fire.But that is not what he says Zom. He says the earth is established on liquid which is established on the atmosphere which is established on space. So he is talking not about the interior of the planet..he is talking about the planet being established on liquid. And he is wrong.