How to overcome love of debate?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
coconut
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by coconut »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:46 pm
coconut wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:41 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:40 pm

No because i dont say it exist apart from its charecterostic of known
And yet Karma exists, just like the music :)
Karma exist only when u think inherant exostance of something like being... if u see as empty, how would u be creating karma?

In debate if u think being exist and then lose or win, u create karma but if u think agtregates fooling own aggregates of others u wont create karma as u dont act out of self desire but act to say out of compassion ... compassion when knowing that there is no person to send compassion and no one to receive compassiom and spreading everywhere is top most form of.compassiom that ends without reminder
As long as becoming, clinging, craving, ignorance and the latent tendencies exist, then Karma is being produced like the music of an instrument (5 aggregates), but when those things don't exist, then there is no more music being produced.

So to say that there is no being is wrong, only after those things are destroyed then there is no more being.
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confusedlayman
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by confusedlayman »

coconut wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:48 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:46 pm
coconut wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:41 pm

And yet Karma exists, just like the music :)
Karma exist only when u think inherant exostance of something like being... if u see as empty, how would u be creating karma?

In debate if u think being exist and then lose or win, u create karma but if u think agtregates fooling own aggregates of others u wont create karma as u dont act out of self desire but act to say out of compassion ... compassion when knowing that there is no person to send compassion and no one to receive compassiom and spreading everywhere is top most form of.compassiom that ends without reminder
As long as becoming, clinging, craving, ignorance and the latent tendencies exist, then Karma is being produced like the music of an instrument (5 aggregates), but when those things don't exist, then there is no more music being produced.

So to say that there is no being is wrong, only after those things are destroyed then there is no more being.
When u perceive non self or impermanence of 5 agg and outside then dependent origination link is off instantly
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
coconut
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by coconut »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:51 pm
coconut wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:48 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:46 pm

Karma exist only when u think inherant exostance of something like being... if u see as empty, how would u be creating karma?

In debate if u think being exist and then lose or win, u create karma but if u think agtregates fooling own aggregates of others u wont create karma as u dont act out of self desire but act to say out of compassion ... compassion when knowing that there is no person to send compassion and no one to receive compassiom and spreading everywhere is top most form of.compassiom that ends without reminder
As long as becoming, clinging, craving, ignorance and the latent tendencies exist, then Karma is being produced like the music of an instrument (5 aggregates), but when those things don't exist, then there is no more music being produced.

So to say that there is no being is wrong, only after those things are destroyed then there is no more being.
When u perceive non self or impermanence of 5 agg and outside then dependent origination link is off instantly
Sure but to do that you have to be an Arahant path attainer about to destroy the last few fetters. Until then, the being/music/karma exists.
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confusedlayman
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by confusedlayman »

coconut wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:53 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:51 pm
coconut wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:48 pm

As long as becoming, clinging, craving, ignorance and the latent tendencies exist, then Karma is being produced like the music of an instrument (5 aggregates), but when those things don't exist, then there is no more music being produced.

So to say that there is no being is wrong, only after those things are destroyed then there is no more being.
When u perceive non self or impermanence of 5 agg and outside then dependent origination link is off instantly
Sure but to do that you have to be an Arahant path attainer about to destroy the last few fetters. Until then, the being/music/karma exists.
I agree
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Sam Vara
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by Sam Vara »

Spend more time here on DW.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom".
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:27 pm Spend more time here on DW.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom".
Like eating ice-cream until you're sick? :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by SteRo »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:22 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:27 pm Spend more time here on DW.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom".
Like eating ice-cream until you're sick? :tongue:


Don't think that this applies to sensual desire.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SteRo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:29 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:22 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:27 pm Spend more time here on DW.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom".
Like eating ice-cream until you're sick? :tongue:


Don't think that this applies to sensual desire.
It doesn't work for me. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Bundokji
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by Bundokji »

Maybe contemplating the draw backs of debate helps:
Self-conquest is far better than the conquest of others. Not even a god, an angel, Mara or Brahma can turn into defeat the victory of a person who is self-subdued and ever restrained in conduct.
However, debates have benefits such as testing the consistency of ones own views. Also solving disputes through debates is better than resorting to violence or hate speech. Also debates can reveal the necessity of good intentions in investigating a truth with the help of another. Some statements can be technically true but serve to deceive absence good intentions. Also debates are manifestations of the uncertainty in conditioned phenomena. It also reveals how conventional reality functions and the temporary feeling of security we gain when we persuade another to agree with us. We get the feeling that the more we get people to perceive reality and to behave through the lens of a certain idea, the more we are heading toward a more certain and a more harmonious future. This is probably why, being a good debater is associated with status among social beings.

In a religious or spiritual community such as a Buddhist forum, discussing and debating are the primary vehicles of learning. There are aspects in us that can be cultivated in positive ways with the help of wise friends, such as our competitive nature and our desire to be right. There is nothing praiseworthy in losing a debate. When you observe our nature, our engagement with others is constantly negotiated since childhood. Even the limits and the status of the Buddha's authority is subject to negotiation among the unenlightened from a mere spiritual friend to being the one who knows.

In general, how we view things depends on where we are on the path. What can be beneficial at a certain point can be a hindrance at a different point. The individual practitioner is the ultimate criteria in my opinion.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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confusedlayman
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:29 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:22 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:27 pm Spend more time here on DW.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom".
Like eating ice-cream until you're sick? :tongue:


Don't think that this applies to sensual desire.
why its not sensual desire? I thought any desire for happens in 5 sense is sensual desire even drinking coffee or hearing music or eating fav food
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SteRo
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:21 am
SteRo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:29 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:22 pm

Like eating ice-cream until you're sick? :tongue:


Don't think that this applies to sensual desire.
why its not sensual desire? I thought any desire for happens in 5 sense is sensual desire even drinking coffee or hearing music or eating fav food
You have to learn to read what is written.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
form
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by form »

Many people read in the suttas, the Buddha debate this and that and they tried to copy their idol and also debate
this and that. Some even think they are the defenders of the dhamma.
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confusedlayman
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by confusedlayman »

form wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:16 pm Many people read in the suttas, the Buddha debate this and that and they tried to copy their idol and also debate
this and that. Some even think they are the defenders of the dhamma.
buddha dhamma can't be proved wrong.. hence buddhist don't fail in debates

but people who are partially know buddhism might get defeated by senior monks which is good thing for them to learn from monks.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
form
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by form »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:45 pm
form wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:16 pm Many people read in the suttas, the Buddha debate this and that and they tried to copy their idol and also debate
this and that. Some even think they are the defenders of the dhamma.
buddha dhamma can't be proved wrong.. hence buddhist don't fail in debates

but people who are partially know buddhism might get defeated by senior monks which is good thing for them to learn from monks.
Some debators do not stick to fair debate rules, they punch below belts.

No all Buddhists are equally clever.

Even the Buddha will see the situations, at certain time he kept his mouth closed. Cos if he offend the wrong people, they may do something terrible to him.
SteRo
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:45 pm
form wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:16 pm Many people read in the suttas, the Buddha debate this and that and they tried to copy their idol and also debate
this and that. Some even think they are the defenders of the dhamma.
buddha dhamma can't be proved wrong.. hence buddhist don't fail in debates
That's a nice statement of someone who relies on belief and obviously is not engaged in the study of logical reasoning which is not included in theravada doctrine which btw is no deficiency of that doctrine.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
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