Luminous Mind. - What is it?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:What about he bit before that? "And it is freed..." ("freed" as in "it can be freed", "it will be freed" or "is already freed"?)
You are reaching here. The only way the mind is freed by by seeing things as they are, by bringing greed, hatred and delusion to an end.
I am not. I am asking for the ways in which the Pali can be rendered.
It rather looks like you are reaching. The translations above are accurate enough.
Incidentally "yathabhuta" seems to be closest to "as [they] arise" according to this person:

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... athabhuta/
Does not change a thing.
Which accords well with the message to Bahiya and the luminosity that is prior to all fermentations.
The supposed luminosity, however, is not awakening. Awakening, bodhi, only comes when there is the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Dan74
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Dan74 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Which accords well with the message to Bahiya and the luminosity that is prior to all fermentations.
The supposed luminosity, however, is not awakening. Awakening, bodhi, only comes when three is the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion.
Seeing things as they are, greed, hatred and delusion are brought to an end. Bringing greed, hatred and delusion to an end, things are seen as they are.

"Luminous," it seems, refers to this right seeing (which I guess would eschew both "things" and "seer" as realities but only use them as useful designations).

But what about this (sorry to be pedantic but this is my first time digging into Pali :smile: )
kho āgantukehi upakkilesehi vippamuttaṃ
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote: This is not about trying to sneak in some sort of a self. My experience is that when there is some letting up of grasping, there is not only clarity but luminosity. I am trying to figure out what exactly the Buddha is saying here - whether it is related to this experience or something else altogether.
Clarirty vs luminosity. is a non-argument, but on the other hand luminosity can be a characteristic of a highly concentrated mind, as such is the supposed "letting go." There can be a big difference between the letting go that happens as a result vipassana and that of samadhi or jhana, as can there a big difference in types of experiences. It is a curious watching the gymanstics that take place over this passage, but the realuity is that it is part of a far larger and persuasive context.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Dan74 »

tiltbillings wrote: It is a curious watching the gymanstics that take place over this passage, but the realuity is that it is part of a far larger and persuasive context.
No doubt.

Will you be willing to place it in the appropriate context?

I am sure many of us will appreciate this.

PS Clarity and luminosity do seem very different. Luminosity, as I see it, is a particularly vibrant state where everything is glowing as it were. Whereas clarity is more akin to stilness where everything is very clear and vivid. Both are sometimes discussed in other traditions as attributes of liberated seeing.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Which accords well with the message to Bahiya and the luminosity that is prior to all fermentations.
The supposed luminosity, however, is not awakening. Awakening, bodhi, only comes when three is the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion.
Seeing things as they are, greed, hatred and delusion are brought to an end. Bringing greed, hatred and delusion to an end, things are seen as they are.
The bit of "luminosity"/clarity that arises as the mind turns towards an object is not yet seeing things as they are; it is far from it. It is the basis of what needs to be cultivated and it is part of a grouping of mental factors that are cultivated and brought into play. See the Satipatthana Sutta. I think one needs to be very careful about trying to turn it into some more than that. We are not already awakened; we do not have some sort of nature of awakening already present within us.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Dan74 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote: Seeing things as they are, greed, hatred and delusion are brought to an end. Bringing greed, hatred and delusion to an end, things are seen as they are.
The bit of "luminosity"/clarity that arises as the mind turns towards an object is not yet seeing things as they are; it is far from it. It is the basis of what needs to be cultivated and it is part of a grouping of mental factors that are cultivated and brought into play.
I didn't mean turning towards the object. I meant turning towards the object, letting go of all else and then letting go of the object and turning back towards awareness.
tiltbillings wrote:See the Satipatthana Sutta.


I will.
tiltlbillings wrote:I think one needs to be very careful about trying to turn it into some more than that.
That's always good advice. Best not to turn anything into anything. The proof is in the pudding - the extent to which greed, anger and delusion are absent, to that extent one is liberated.

(I would say though that even waaay before liberation, one can have the taste of nibbana, perhaps from past cultivation or through a kind of grace, I don't know. Some of us, stupid sods, need this to keep going with this upstream practice, it seems...)
tiltlbillings wrote:We are not already awakened; we do not have some sort of nature of awakening already present within us.
To me this is just as correct as saying that we are and we have. Like Ajahn Mun says, the clouds obscure it. Or like tiltbillings says with the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion, bodhi is attained. But what is this destruction? It is insight, isn't it? Because greed, hatred and delusion are empty like a mirage or a misunderstanding, when seen through. Then the sun can shine.

Time to go to work!
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Ben »

Hi Dan,
Dan74 wrote: (I would say though that even waaay before liberation, one can have the taste of nibbana, perhaps from past cultivation or through a kind of grace, I don't know.
Yes, at sotapatti-magga, sakadagamita-magga and anagamita-magga. And as the results of the combination of one's own efforts and paramitas.
the extent to which greed, anger and delusion are absent, to that extent one is liberated.
That is true in that moment. However, unless one has attained one of the ariya states, then one's progress may be characterised by going forwards and backwards and that liberation is not guaranteed until one 'tastes' nibbana for the first time at sotapatti-magga. After that, one's complete liberation is assured.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote: Seeing things as they are, greed, hatred and delusion are brought to an end. Bringing greed, hatred and delusion to an end, things are seen as they are.
The bit of "luminosity"/clarity that arises as the mind turns towards an object is not yet seeing things as they are; it is far from it. It is the basis of what needs to be cultivated and it is part of a grouping of mental factors that are cultivated and brought into play.
I didn't mean turning towards the object. I meant turning towards the object, letting go of all else and then letting go of the object and turning back towards awareness.
I think we are not talking about the same thing here. What I am talking about is that first instance of awareness that comes with contact before the full play of the khandhas kicks in.
Like Ajahn Mun says, the clouds obscure it.
Obscure what?
Or like tiltbillings says with the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion, bodhi is attained. But what is this destruction? It is insight, isn't it? Because greed, hatred and delusion are empty like a mirage or a misunderstanding, when seen through. Then the sun can shine.
You seem to be still working hard to have some sort of already existing awakening thing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: It is a curious watching the gymanstics that take place over this passage, but the realuity is that it is part of a far larger and persuasive context.
No doubt.

Will you be willing to place it in the appropriate context?

I am sure many of us will appreciate this.

PS Clarity and luminosity do seem very different. Luminosity, as I see it, is a particularly vibrant state where everything is glowing as it were. Whereas clarity is more akin to stilness where everything is very clear and vivid. Both are sometimes discussed in other traditions as attributes of liberated seeing.
Other traditions carry no weight here. And, again, way too much weight is being applied to a literal reading of the word it seems.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Sorry to interrupt. You guys seem to be having fun. :popcorn:

So, let me ask: "Has anyone here, during meditation or mindfulness practice actually observed the luminosity of mind which Buddha mentions?"

Next question: "If not, has anyone here attained The Third Jhanna?" I ask this since luminosity of mind occurs in The Fourth Jhanna according to what I have read.

Last question for only those who have answered affirmatively in both questions above.: "When sitting in meditation, how does one know that they are observing the luminous mind?"
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Sorry to interrupt. You guys seem to be having fun. :popcorn:

So, let me ask: "Has anyone here, during meditation or mindfulness practice actually observed the luminosity of mind which Buddha mentions?"

Next question: "If not, has anyone here attained The Third Jhanna?" I ask this since luminosity of mind occurs in The Fourth Jhanna according to what I have read.

Last question for only those who have answered affirmatively in both questions above.: "When sitting in meditation, how does one know that they are observing the luminous mind?"
Which is a good question, which I kind of asked already. All too easy to confuse these things. As I said, the "luminosity" in the Anguttara passage I suspect refers to the initial instant of the mind (citta) arises from contact before the full play of the khandhas kicks in. That can be experienced. Is it "luminious?" Well, it is brightly clear (in my experience), but how literal do we need to be with these metaphorical words?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Viscid »

So is the 'luminous mind' the awareness of viññāṇakkhandha when the other four khandhas are absent?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Ben »

Viscid wrote:So is the 'luminous mind' the awareness of viññāṇakkhandha when the other four khandhas are absent?
The other khandhas are always present unless one is in the seventh and eighth jhanas (if I remember correctly).
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Kenshou »

The absence being emphasized in this sutta appears to be that of defilements, wouldn't you say?
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by pegembara »

From Mae Chee Kaew - Her Journey to Spiritual Awakening P. 194

“When you investigate mental phenomena until you go beyond them completely, the remaining defiling elements of
consciousness will be drawn into a radiant nucleus of awareness, which merges with the mind’s naturally radiant essence.
This radiance is so majestic and mesmerizing that even transcendent faculties like spontaneous mindfulness and intuitive
wisdom invariably fall under its spell. The mind’s brightness and clarity appear to be so extraordinary and awe-inspiring,
that nothing can possibly compare. The luminous essence is the epitome of perfect goodness and virtue, the ultimate
in spiritual happiness. It is your true, original self — the core of your being. But this true self is also the fundamental
source of all attachment to being and becoming. Ultimately it is attachment to the allure of this primordial radiance of
mind that causes living beings to wander indefinitely through the world of becoming and ceasing, constantly grasping at
birth and enduring death.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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