Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm discourage practitioners
In conclusion, it appears believing cessation of perception & feeling is Nibbana means stream-entry (knowing/tasting the end of suffering) cannot occur until non-returner. Therefore, practice becomes impossible because a stream-enterer cannot end perception & feeling. However, when there is Right View, the practitioner aims for Nibbana by abandoning craving & attachment, which a stream-enterer can do. It seems those who emphasis the cessation of perception & feeling are not practising the Path.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by starter »

Hi Doodoot,

"No. There is at least one sutta that says defilement re-arise after emerging from cessation of perception and feeling."

-- Would you kindly provide me this sutta?

Thanks and metta,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by starter »

Hi friends,

I'd like to clarify that the Buddha classified the cessation of perception and feeling as the highest emancipation of the eight emancipations (DN 15), but didn't mention it as nibbana. When non-arahants enter this state, whose defilements haven't yet been removed, it's indeed not yet nibbana. However, the suttas I've found on the cessation of perception and feeling associate it with nibbana (“seeing with wisdom, his defilements ended”). It's not clear whether the ending of defilements occurred during or after such a dwelling (it's possible that there's a transcendental awareness after the cessation of aggregate consciousness then as suggested by AN 10.70 and AN 10.20); but on either case with the ending of defilements associated with such a state, one obtained the highest type of nibbana ("liberated in both ways").

I'm trying to understand the cessation of perception and feeling, so that I can understand nibbana better. I thought that the Buddha obtained his direct experience of nibbana from the cessation of perception and feeling, since that's the highest meditation achievement. Based upon my personal experience, the general understanding of nibbana as ending of craving or ending of greed/hatred/delusion is not enough. However, by no means I implied that one should practice the cessation of perception and feeling as the starting point of the path. The most important first step for trainees is to establish right understanding of the four noble truths, including nibbana. For more details about my understanding of the Buddha's gradual training, please see the following:

1. Read suttas (https://suttacentral.net/) & Obtain right view: first mundane right view (the law of kamma), then supramundane right view (the four noble truths), and obtain faith in the Buddha and his teaching: for details see https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/se ... ning/17081 [add SN 12.51, SN 12.2, MN 43]

2. Cultivate right intention/thinking/resolve (non-sensual desire, non-ill will, non-cruelty): for details see https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/se ... olve/18034

3. Sila practice:
For details see https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/se ... tice/18184

The rest steps will be coming soon.

Thanks and metta,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:13 pm There is at least one sutta that says defilement re-arise after emerging from cessation of perception and feeling."

-- Would you kindly provide me this sutta?
I recall you posted this sutta yourself, below:
AN 5.166:
“Mendicants, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. … If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, they’re reborn in the company of a certain host of mind-made gods, who surpass the gods that consume solid food. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.”
:alien:
starter wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:24 pm I'd like to clarify that the Buddha classified the cessation of perception and feeling as the highest emancipation of the eight emancipations (DN 15), but didn't mention it as nibbana.
In MN 43, five types of emancipation are listed, namely, 4th jhana, metta, nothingness, signless & emptiness however it appears emptiness is declared the foremost.
starter wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:24 pm It's not clear whether the ending of defilements occurred during or after such a dwelling
My impression is it is generally held the ending of defilements via wisdom occurs after emerging.

Note: defilements obviously cease during the attainment because a defilement cannot exist without perception & feeling. But it appears the seeing by wisdom must occur after emerging. Thus the suttas say the meditator experiences three things after emerging, namely, the signless (animitto), the desireless/undirected (appaṇihita) and emptiness (suññato).
starter wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:13 pmI'm trying to understand the cessation of perception and feeling, so that I can understand nibbana better.
Nibbana is the destruction of craving. If craving is stopped/suspended, now, the mind can enter the stream to Nibbana, now.

But you cannot stop/suspend perception & feeling now. This is impossible.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by starter »

Hi DooDoot,

Thanks for your help. I'd think that sutta AN 5.166 can be interpreted this way:

“Reverends, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling [and reach enlightenment then].
“idhāvuso, bhikkhu sīlasampanno samādhisampanno paññāsampanno saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ samāpajjeyyāpi vuṭṭhaheyyāpi

That is possible. atthetaṃ ṭhānaṃ.

If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, then, surpassing the company of gods that consume solid food, they’re reborn in a certain host of mind-made gods. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling [and reach enlightenment -- this is the logic of this sentence].
No ce diṭṭheva dhamme aññaṃ ārādheyya, atikkammeva kabaḷīkārāhārabhakkhānaṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ aññataraṃ manomayaṃ kāyaṃ upapanno saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ samāpajjeyyāpi vuṭṭhaheyyāpi

That is possible.”atthetaṃ ṭhānan”ti."

This is just my understanding. It's hard to imagine that a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom will not become fully enlightened after directly experiencing the (temporary) cessation of the five aggregates.

With metta,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

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New translations of relevant paragraphs in MN 49 and DN 11:

MN 49:

“Viññāṇaṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ, taṁ pathaviyā pathavattena ananubhūtaṁ, āpassa āpattena ananubhūtaṁ, tejassa tejattena ananubhūtaṁ, vāyassa vāyattena ananubhūtaṁ, bhūtānaṁ bhūtattena ananubhūtaṁ, devānaṁ devattena ananubhūtaṁ, pajāpatissa pajāpatittena ananubhūtaṁ, brahmānaṁ brahmattena ananubhūtaṁ, ābhassarānaṁ ābhassarattena ananubhūtaṁ, subhakiṇhānaṁ subhakiṇhattena ananubhūtaṁ, vehapphalānaṁ vehapphalattena ananubhūtaṁ, abhibhussa abhibhuttena ananubhūtaṁ, sabbassa sabbattena ananubhūtaṁ.”

“Consciousness non-manifesting, immeasurable, not predicating being in relation to all* does not partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of fire, the windiness of wind... nor of the divinity of the devas... of the brahmas... of the Overlord ... or of the Allness of the All.”

[*Bhikkhu Bodhi’s notes: “Ñm, in Ms, explains that he takes pabhaṁ to be a negative present participle of pabhavati—apabhaṁ—the negative-prefix a dropping off in conjunction with sabbato: “The sense can be paraphrased freely by ‘not predicating being in relation to “all” ..."-- that which is not partaken of the allness of all]

“Pathaviṁ kho ahaṁ, brahme, pathavito abhiññāya yāvatā pathaviyā pathavattena ananubhūtaṁ tadabhiññāya, pathaviṁ nāpahosiṁ, pathaviyā nāpahosiṁ, pathavito nāpahosiṁ, pathaviṁ meti nāpahosiṁ, pathaviṁ nābhivadiṁ.”

“Having known earth from the earth [MA 78: “我於地則知地”], and having known that which is not partaken of the earthness (solidity) of the earth, I did not claim to be earth, I did not claim to be in the earth, I did not claim that earth is in me (MA 78: “我非地所”), I did not claim earth to be “mine”, I did not affirm all ...
Having known water from water, …, all from all (MA 78: “於一切則知一切”), and having known that which is not partaken of the allness of all, I did not claim to be all, I did not claim to be in all, I did not claim that all is in me(我非一切所), I did not claim all to be “mine”, I did not affirm all, ...

And a note about the following in MN 49:

‘Having seen fear in being

And [having seen] that being will cease to be,

I did not welcome any kind of being,

Nor did I cling to delight.’

Beings in samsara has established viññāṇa, which is anicca, and will eventually cease to exist in samsara. Beings should strive to enter nibbana as soon as possible, since they don't know when their being will cease to be.

DN 11 the Kevaḍḍha-sutta [Parallel DA 24]:

"Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;
Ettha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati.
Ettha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’ti. "

“Consciousness non-manifesting (not established),
Immeasurable, not predicating being in relation to all (that which is not partaken of the allness of all, see MN 49).
Here’s where water and earth,
fire and air find no footing;
here’s where long and short,
fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly;
here’s where name and form
cease with nothing left over—
with the cessation of consciousness,
all this is brought to an end.”

And a note about MN 22:

MN 22: “... Bhikkhus, when the gods with Indra, with Brahmā and with Pajāpati seek a bhikkhu who is thus liberated in mind, they do not find anything of which they could say: ‘The consciousness of one thus gone is supported by this.’ Why is that? One thus gone, I say, is untraceable here and now. ..."
MA 200: “如是正解脫如來,有因提羅及天伊沙那,有梵及眷屬,彼求不能得如來所依識”

It is because consciousness of the liberated bhikkhu was not manifested when dwelling in cessation of perception and feeling -- Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ. When he is not dwelling in cessation of perception and feeling, he has appatiṭṭha viññāṇa which is nibbana with residue.

Metta to all!

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by starter »

I'd like to correct my following mistakes:

1) Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ can be both nibbana without residue (at the death of the arahants their five aggregates are discarded) and with residue (when living arahants dwell in cessation of perception and feeling -- though their five aggregates temporarily "disappeared" from their senses, they still possess the five aggregates).

2) The following suttas are not the Buddha's teaching: Ud 1.10, Iti 44, Ud 8.1, Ud 8.3, Ud 8.4, AN 4.173.

I'm updating my summary of nibbana here:

Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa

viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" [consciousness non-manifesting]
= cessation of consciousness
= nibbana with or without residue* ( *five aggregates)

appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, unestablished/nongenerative consciousness
= "immeasurable mind", pure mind devoid of defilements
= living arahant’s mind
= nibbana with residue

A. Appatiṭṭha viññāṇa -- nibbana with residue

Living arahants still have unestablished (non-grasping, nongenerative, non-karmic) aggregate consciousness – Apatiṭṭhā viññāṇa, which ceases at their physical death (as well as when they enter the state of cessation of perception and feeling).

SN 22.54

“... Bhikkhus, the four stations of consciousness should be seen as like the earth element. Delight and lust should be seen as like the water element. Consciousness with its support* should be seen as like the five kinds of seeds. "

[* The relationship between consciousness and its support is like the relationship between embryo and endosperm; the support (endosperm) is lust (which is also “water”), which nourishes consciousness (embryo) to grow and become established on the four clinging aggregates. Chinese Agama parallels SA 359, SA 360, SA 361 and other suttas use the term "攀援识” – grasping karmic consciousness for such established consciousness.]

“Consciousness, bhikkhus, while standing, might stand attached to form; based upon form, established upon form, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expansion. Or consciousness, while standing, might stand attached to feeling … attached to perception … attached to volition; based upon volition, established upon volition, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expansion."

[* When there is delight and lust for form, feeling, perception, volition, consciousness becomes attached to form, feeling, perception, and volition, and proliferates.
When such delight and lust is abandoned, consciousness is not attached to its four stations, and becomes freed from the four clinging aggregates and is non-proliferating.]

“Bhikkhus, though someone might say: ‘Apart from form, apart from feeling, apart from perception, apart from volition, I will make known the un-going and going (āgatiṁ vā gatiṁ) of consciousness, its passing away and rebirth, its growth, increase, and expansion’—that is impossible.

“Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has abandoned lust for the form element, with the abandoning of lust the support* is cut off: there is no support for the establishing of consciousness. If he has abandoned lust for the feeling element … for the perception element … for the volition element … for the consciousness element, with the abandoning of lust the support is cut off: there is no support for the establishing of consciousness."

[*An embryo can’t develop without endosperm and water serving as its support.]

“When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is freed (from the four clinging aggregates). By being freed, it stands still (no increase and expansion -- no proliferation); by standing still, it is content; by being content, he is imperpurtable. Being imperpurtable, he personally attains Nibbāna. … ” [words in phrases are added by me and is my personal understanding.]

SN 12.64:
"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food ... contact ... intention ... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, nama-rupa does not alight. Where nama-rupa does not alight, there is no growth of (karmic) volitions. Where there is no growth of (karmic) volitions, there is no production of renewed being in the future. Where there is no production of renewed being in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

B. viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ = nibbana with or without residue

To understand viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ and nibbana, we need to understand the state of cessation of perception and feeling, since IMHO what we have learned about nibbana are from the Buddha’s (and arahants’) direct experiences of the state of cessation of perception and feeling.

When the Buddha and arahants dwell in cessation of perception and feeling, they are in nibbana with residue; when they die, they enter nibbana without residue.

1. The enlightened ones' experience of cessation of perception and feeling:

In DN 11 and MN 49, IMHO, the Buddha was describing what he directly experienced at the state of cessation of perception and feeling (and consciousness).

DN 11 the Kevaḍḍha-sutta [Parallel DA 24]:

"Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;
Ettha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati.
Ettha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’ti. "

"Consciousness non-manifesting, immeasurable, not predicating being in relation to all (that which is not partaken of the allness of all, see MN 49). Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul nama & rupa are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end.

MN 49 Brahma-nimantanika Sutta:
“Consciousness non-manifesting, immeasurable, not predicating being in relation to all* does not partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of fire, the windiness of wind... nor of the divinity of the devas... of the brahmas... of the Overlord ... or of the Allness of the All.”

[* *Bhikkhu Bodhi’s notes: “Ñm, in Ms, explains that he takes pabhaṁ to be a negative present participle of pabhavati—apabhaṁ—the negative-prefix a dropping off in conjunction with sabbato: “The sense can be paraphrased freely by ‘not predicating being in relation to “all” ..."-- that which is not partaken of the allness of all.]

[Consciousness is not manifesting (there is no aggregate consciousness which has ceased); it should NOT be interpreted as "invisible consciousness" or ‘non-manifestative consciousness’ IMHO. At the state of cessation of perception and feeling, aggregate consciousness ceases. The "immeasurable, not partaking of the allness of the all "does not refer to aggregate consciousness, but the "untraceable" transcendental awareness that “perceives” nibbana -- please see below.]

Please note that such descriptions (consciousness non-manifesting, immeasurable, not partaking of the allness of the all) agree with the suttas' description of Nibbana, as well as the following description of the Tathāgata:

MN 72 [SA 962, SA2 196]

“... any form ..., any feeling …, any perception …, any volition ..., any consciousness by which one classifying the Tathagata might classify him, that form …, feeling ... , that perception …, that volition …, that consciousness has been got rid of by the Tathāgata, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with it, so that it is no longer subject to future arising. Freed from denotation by form ..., feeling …, perception ..., volition ..., consciousness is the Tathāgata, Vaccha, he is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom, like the ocean. ‘Reappears’ doesn’t apply. ‘Does not reappear’ doesn’t apply. ‘Both does & does not reappear’ doesn’t apply. ‘Neither reappears nor does not reappear’ doesn’t apply.

AN 10.81:

"Freed, dissociated, and released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind*. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, and released from form, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind. Freed, dissociated, and released from feeling... from perception... from volitions... from consciousness... from birth... from aging... from death... from suffering ... Freed, dissociated, and released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind*."

[*This “mind” is transcendental and unconditioned which is “untraceable here and now” during the arahants’ life (MN 22), not the conditioned six-sense mind. It is “untraceable” because the aggregate consciousness of the liberated bhikkhu was not manifested when dwelling in cessation of perception and feeling -- Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ. When he is not dwelling in cessation of perception and feeling, he has appatiṭṭha viññāṇa.]

SN 4.19 The Farmer
“The eye is yours, Evil One, forms are yours, eye-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no eye, no forms, no eye-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One. ... The mind is yours, Evil One, mind objects are yours, mind-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no mind, no mind objects, no mind-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One."

When the Buddha and the arahants dwell in the state of cessation of perception and feeling, they “perceive” Nibbana when dwelling in such a state.

SN 1.2:
“By the utter destruction of delight in existence,
By the extinction of perception and consciousness,
By the cessation and appeasement of feelings:
It is thus, friend, that I know for beings—
Emancipation, release, Nibbana.”

MN 111 (& AN 9.34):
"Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. ... He understood: ‘There is no escape beyond.’ And by repeated practice he knew for sure that there is not."

AN 9.34:
“Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. That too is a way to understand how Nibbana is bliss.”

AN 10.20:
[Monks:] “Could it be, reverend, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.” [*not mind consciousness]

[Ven. Sāriputta:] “It’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all volitions, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, Nibbana.’

That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”

AN 10.7:
[Ven. Sariputta:]
“On one occasion, friend Ānanda, I was dwelling right here in Sāvatthī in the Blind Men’s Grove. There I attained such a state of concentration that I was not percipient of earth in relation to earth; of water in relation to water; of fire in relation to fire; of air in relation to air; of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; of this world in relation to this world; of the other world in relation to the other world, but I was still percipient.”

“But of what was the Venerable Sāriputta percipient on that occasion?”

“One perception arose and another perception ceased in me*: ‘The cessation of becoming/being is nibbāna; the cessation of becoming/being is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of becoming/being is nibbāna; the cessation of becoming/being is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of becoming/being is nibbāna.’”

*When the aggregate perception and consciousness cease at the state of cessation of perception and feeling (and also at the death of an arahant), the transcendental “perception” and awareness of Nibbana arise. If the Buddha didn’t have such transcendental “perception” and awareness of Nibbana, he wouldn’t have been able to teach what he knew about Nibbana to us.

Both before and after death an arahant is untraceable by the beings in the conditioned worlds of samsara because it's impossible for the beings to reach/know the unconditioned, transcendental "awareness", like the fish doesn't reach/know the land.
(MN 22: “One thus gone, I say, is untraceable here and now.”).

2. What happens at an aranhant's death:

SN 22.87 [2 Chinese parallels]

“Then the Buddha together with several mendicants went to the Black Rock on the slopes of Isigili. The Buddha saw Vakkali off in the distance lying on his cot, having cast off the aggregates.

Now at that time a cloud of black smoke was moving east, west, north, south, above, below, and in-between.

The Buddha said to the mendicants, “Mendicants, do you see that cloud of black smoke moving east, west, north, south, above, below, and in-between?”

“Yes, sir.”

“That’s Māra the Wicked searching for Vakkali’s consciousness, wondering: ‘Where is Vakkali’s consciousness established?’ But since his consciousness is not established*, Vakkali has attained final Nibbāna.” [EA 26.10 "婆迦梨比丘神識永無所著"]

* The consciousness here refers to aggregate consciousness, which can be found by Mara and gods, had ceased. IMHO this sentence should not be translated as ""O! monks, the clansman Godhika passed away with an unestablished Consciousness."

AN 8.19: With Pahārāda
“Just as, whatever streams in the world flow into the great ocean and however much rain falls into it from the sky, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the great ocean, so too, even if many bhikkhus attain final nibbāna by way of the nibbāna element without residue remaining, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the nibbāna element. [“若眾多之比丘,亦於無餘涅槃界般涅槃,即使於無餘涅槃界亦不知有增減。”]

"Post-mortem continuum for an arahant" is not the continuum of any conditioned phenomena [ "existence"/"non-existence"], but the unconditioned, Nibbana.

3. Some other suttas about Nibbana:

MN 115:
There are these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When a mendicant knows and sees these two elements, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the elements’.”

Let me end this essay with a note about the danger of samsara and the Buddha’s invitation to the Deathless:

MN 49:

‘Having seen fear in being

And [having seen] that being will cease to be,

I did not welcome any kind of being,

Nor did I cling to delight.’

Beings in samsara has established, karmic viññāṇa, which is anicca, and will eventually cease to exist in samsara [all sankharas have 成住坏灭, 有始有终]. Beings should strive to enter nibbana as soon as possible, since they don't know when their being will cease to be.

MN 26:
“Then the bhikkhus of the group of five, thus taught and instructed by me, being themselves subject to birth, having understood the danger in what is subject to birth, seeking the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna, attained the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna; being themselves subject to ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, and defilement, having understood the danger in what is subject to ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, and defilement, seeking the unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, and undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna, they attained the unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, and undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna. The knowledge and vision arose in them: ‘Our deliverance is unshakeable; this is our last birth; there is no renewal of being.’
...
Open for them are the doors to the Deathless, Let those with ears now show their faith...”.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Thank you for these 10 years of research and investigation!

:thanks:

:namaste:
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Just some thoughts( Hopefully useful for your investigations),

'viññana' is some times used in the sense of knowing/understanding.
Viññātasārāni subhāsitāni,
Sutañca viññātasamādhisāraṁ;
Na tassa paññā ca sutañca vaḍḍhati,
Yo sāhaso hoti naro pamatto.
https://suttacentral.net/snp2.9/pli/ms

Another reading of 'viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ'

Knowable (yet) cannot be seen (by cakkhu Indriya, even dibbacakkhu)
Amosadhammaṁ nibbānaṁ,
Tadariyā saccato vidū;
Te ve saccābhisamayā,
Nicchātā parinibbutāti.
Satañca vivaṭaṁ hoti,
Āloko passatāmiva;
Santike na vijānanti,
Magā dhammassa kovidā
Ko nu aññatra mariyehi,
Padaṁ sambuddhumarahati;
Yaṁ padaṁ sammadaññāya,
Parinibbanti anāsavā”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/snp3.12/pli/ms

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by starter »

I'd like to correct my mistake of classifying nibbana into 2 types. There is only one type of nibbana, obtained by arahants both during cessation of perception of feeling and at their death:

"This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling (cessation) of all sankharas (the aggregates), the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation (of bhava), Nibbana."

To my understanding, the "suttas" that mention 2 types of nibbana (e.g. Iti 44) and those describing nibbana as a place to enter (e.g. AN 8.19) are not the Buddha's teaching.

Here is my updated version of the summary on nibbana:

Nibbana

MN 115:
“Siyā, ānanda. Dve imā, ānanda, dhātuyo— saṅkhatādhātu, asaṅkhatādhātu.

“There are these two elements: the formed element and the unformed element. When a mendicant (arahant) knows and sees these two elements, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the elements’.”

Bodhi:
“For Nibbana is the asankhata, the unconditioned (unformed), which is called thus precisely because it is neither made up by sankharas nor itself a sankhara in either the active or passive sense. So, when the texts are taken up in the Pali we arrive at a clear picture in fine focus: the active sankharas generated by volition perpetually create passive sankharas, the sankhata dhammas or conditioned (formed) phenomena of the five aggregates ... ; and then, through the practice of the Buddha’s path, the practitioner arrives at the true knowledge of conditioned (formed) phenomena (the five aggregates), which disables the generation of active sankharas (new five aggregates), putting an end to the constructing of conditioned (formed) reality (stopping the transmigration in samsara) and opening the door to the Deathless, the asankhata, the unformed* (*the transcendental “awareness” that perceives nibbana during cessation of perception and feeling), which is Nibbana* (*it should be “which dwells in Nibbana”), the final liberation from impermanence and suffering.” [The words in parentheses are my addition.]

MN 49 Brahma-nimantanika Sutta:
“Consciousness non-manifesting, immeasurable, not predicating being in relation to all*, does not partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of fire, the windiness of wind... nor of the divinity of the devas... of the brahmas... of the Overlord ... or of the Allness of the All.”

[*The "immeasurable, not partaking of the allness of the all "does not refer to the sankhara element, but the unformed element as mentioned above.]

MN 22:
“One thus gone, I say, is untraceable here and now.”

[* It is “untraceable” because the aggregate consciousness of arahants ceased when dwelling in cessation of perception and feeling -- Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, while dwelling in nibbana the unformed, deathless, transcendental “awareness” perceives nibbana, which is the same nibbana as the one obtained by the arahants at death.

Both before and after death an arahant is untraceable by the non-arahants in the formed worlds of samsara because it's impossible for them to trace the unformed, the deathless, like the fish doesn't reach the land.]

AN 10.20:
[Monks:] “Could it be, reverend, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.” [*He was not perceiving with aggregate consciousness.]

[Ven. Sāriputta:] “It’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling (cessation) of all sankharas (the aggregates), the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation (of bhava), Nibbana.’

etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ, yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.

[*AN 10.7:
[Ven. Sariputta:]
“On one occasion, friend Ānanda, I was dwelling right here in Sāvatthī in the Blind Men’s Grove. There I attained such a state of concentration that I was not percipient of earth in relation to earth … of this world in relation to this world; of the other world in relation to the other world, but I was still percipient.”

“But of what was the Venerable Sāriputta percipient on that occasion?”

“One perception arose and another perception ceased in me*: ‘The cessation of becoming (bhava) is nibbāna; the cessation of becoming is nibbāna.’ ...’”

[*When the aggregate perception and consciousness cease at cessation of perception and feeling (and also at the death of an arahant), the transcendental “perception” of Nibbana arise. If the Buddha didn’t have such transcendental “perception” of Nibbana, he wouldn’t have been able to teach what he knew about Nibbana to us.]

DN 11 the Kevaḍḍha-sutta:

"Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;
Ettha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati.
Ettha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’ti. "

"Consciousness non-manifesting, immeasurable, not predicating being in relation to all (that which is not partaken of the allness of all, see MN 49; it’s the unformed element). Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul nama & rupa are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end.”

MN 49 Brahma-nimantanika Sutta:
“Consciousness non-manifesting, immeasurable, not predicating being in relation to all*, does not partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of fire, the windiness of wind... nor of the divinity of the devas... of the brahmas... of the Overlord ... or of the Allness of the All.”

At cessation of perception and feeling, aggregate consciousness ceases. The "immeasurable, not partaking of the allness of the all "does not refer to the sankhara element, but the unformed element -- the deathless transcendental “awareness” that perceives nibbana.

AN 10.81:

"Freed, dissociated, and released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind*. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, and released from form, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind. Freed, dissociated, and released from feeling... from perception... from volitions... from consciousness... from birth... from aging... from death... from suffering ... Freed, dissociated, and released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind*."

[*This “mind” is the transcendental “awareness”, which is “untraceable here and now” during the arahants’ life (MN 22), not the formed six-sense mind. It is “untraceable” because the aggregate consciousness of the arahants had ceased.]

Metta to all,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by starter »

Here is a revised version:

Nibbana:

1. Standard description of nibbana:

"This is the peaceful; this is the sublime—that is, the stilling of all sankharas, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana."

etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ, yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti. [AN 10.20, SN 22.90;

一切行寂止、一切執著捨棄、渴愛盡、離欲、滅、涅槃

SN 38.1
“Reverend, the ending of greed, hate, and delusion is called nibbana.”

2. Two types of liberation:

Liberation through wisdom without dody witness

MN 70 Kīṭāgiri Sutta:
And what, monks, is the person liberated through discernment? There is the case where a certain person does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form (cessation of perception and feeling), that are formless, but having seen with discernment his mental outflows are ended. This is called a person who is liberated through discernment.

MN 38:

“On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder.

Liberation through both ways:

AN 9.34 [also MN 111]

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with wisdom, his mental defilements are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how nibbana is pleasant."

3. Two elements: the formed elements and the unformed element

MN 115:
“Siyā, ānanda. Dve imā, ānanda, dhātuyo— saṅkhatādhātu, asaṅkhatādhātu.

“There are these two elements: the formed element and the unformed element. When a mendicant knows and sees these two elements, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the elements’.”

SN 4.19 The Farmer [no parallel]

“The eye is yours, Evil One, forms are yours, eye-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no eye, no forms, no eye-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One. The ear is yours, Evil One, sounds are yours, ear-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no ear, no sounds, no ear-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One. The nose is yours, Evil One, odours are yours, nose-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no nose, no odours, no nose-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One. The tongue is yours, Evil One, tastes are yours, tongue-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no tongue, no tastes, no tongue-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One. The body is yours, Evil One, tactile objects are yours, body-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no body, no tactile objects, no body-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One. The mind is yours, Evil One, mind objects are yours, mind-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no mind, no mind objects, no mind-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One.”

SN 5.7 Upacala Sutta: Upacala

The bhikkhuni Upacala:
"There are Tavatimsa and Yama devas, And devatas of the Tusita realm,
Devas who take delight in creating, And devas who exercise control.
They are still bound by sensual bondage, They come again under Mara's control. "

"All the world is on fire, All the world is burning,
All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. "

"That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort,
Where there is no place for Mara: That is where my mind delights."

DN 11 the Kevaḍḍha-sutta:

"Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;
Ettha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati.
Ettha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’ti. "

"Consciousness non-manifesting, immeasurable, not predicating being in relation to all*. Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul nama & rupa are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end.” [*that which is not partaken of the allness of all, see MN 49; it’s the unformed element.]

MN 49 Brahma-nimantanika Sutta:
“Consciousness non-manifesting, immeasurable, not predicating being in relation to all*, does not partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of fire, the windiness of wind... nor of the divinity of the devas... of the brahmas... of the Overlord ... or of the Allness of the All.”

At cessation of perception and feeling, aggregate consciousness ceases. The "immeasurable, not partaking of the allness of the all "does not refer to the sankhara element, but the unformed element -- the deathless transcendental “awareness” that perceives nibbana.

AN 10.81:

"Freed, dissociated, and released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind*. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, and released from form, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind. Freed, dissociated, and released from feeling... from perception... from volitions... from consciousness... from birth... from aging... from death... from suffering ... Freed, dissociated, and released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind*."

MN 22:
“One thus gone, I say, is untraceable here and now.”

[*This “boundless mind” is the transcendental “awareness”, which is untraceable both during the arahants’ life and after their death, is not the formed six-sense mind. It is “untraceable” because the aggregate consciousness of the arahants had ceased when dwelling in cessation of perception and feeling -- Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, while dwelling in nibbana the unformed, deathless, transcendental “awareness” perceives nibbana, which is the same nibbana as the one obtained by the arahants at death.

Both before and after death an arahant is untraceable by the non-arahants in the formed worlds of samsara because it's impossible for them to trace the unformed/ the deathless, like the fish doesn't reach the land.]

AN 10.20:
[Monks:] “Could it be, reverend, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.” [*He was not perceiving with aggregate consciousness.]

[Ven. Sāriputta:] “It’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all sankharas, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation, Nibbana.’”

[When the aggregate perception and consciousness cease at cessation of perception and feeling (and also at the death of an arahant), the transcendental “perception” of Nibbana arise. If the Buddha didn’t have such transcendental “perception” of Nibbana, he wouldn’t have been able to teach what he knew about Nibbana to us.]

Nibbana is the sublime peace without craving / attachments, when the unformed deathless element, the transcendental “awareness/mind” that perceives nibbana during cessation of perception and feeling, gets liberated from the five aggregates. When arahants die, their transcendental“awareness/mind” (the unformed, deathless element) forever becomes liberated from the aggregates, forever stops transmigrating in samsara, forever dwells in the sublime peace of nibbana, forever free from all dukkha, 没有生老病死轮回之苦。

Bodhi:
“For Nibbana* [*better change into “the deathless”] is the asankhata, the unconditioned (unformed), which is called thus precisely because it is neither made up by sankharas nor itself a sankhara in either the active or passive sense. So, when the texts are taken up in the Pali we arrive at a clear picture in fine focus: the active sankharas (mental/bodily/verbal actions) generated by volition perpetually create passive sankharas, the sankhata dhammas or conditioned (formed) phenomena of the five aggregates ... ; and then, through the practice of the Buddha’s path, the practitioner arrives at the true knowledge of conditioned (formed) phenomena (the five aggregates), which disables the generation of active sankharas, putting an end to the constructing of conditioned (formed) reality (stopping the transmigration in samsara) and opening the door to the Deathless, the asankhata, the unformed* [*the transcendental “awareness” that perceives nibbana during cessation of perception and feeling], ... the final liberation from impermanence and suffering.” [The words in parentheses are my addition.]
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:26 pm I'd like to correct my mistake of classifying nibbana into 2 types. There is only one type of nibbana, obtained by arahants both during cessation of perception of feeling and at their death:

The above is mistaken. Cessation of perception & feeling is not Nibbana because there is a sutta that says the non-returner emerges from cessation of perception & feeling. Also "death" ("marana") does not occur to an Arahant.
starter wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:26 pm
"This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling (cessation) of all sankharas (the aggregates), the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation (of bhava), Nibbana."
The above translation is mistaken. The word "samatha" does not mean "cessation". Also, "nirodha" does not only apply to "bhava". Note: "bhava" does not mean "rebirth".
starter wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:26 pmTo my understanding, the "suttas" that mention 2 types of nibbana (e.g. Iti 44) and those describing nibbana as a place to enter (e.g. AN 8.19) are not the Buddha's teaching.
Iti 44 is a Buddha's teaching. The above idea is mistaken or a mistake.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by starter »

I'd like to point out that my previous understanding of nibbana is wrong. I now understand nibbana as the following:

the cessation of avijja and tanha, of greed, aversion, delusion that derived from avijja and tanha, of all evil derived from the defilements; the cessation of suffering / samsara (no evil no suffering/no samsara), which is the undefiled nibbana.

There is only one type of nibbana, which is attained when the Buddhas and arahants leave the human world.

The way to attain nibbana: sila, sammadhi, panna, after understanding the Dhamma and establishing faith in the Buddha.

Sammadhi is the four jhanas; the fourth jhana is absolutely necessaary for obtainiing panna.

Panna is the three knowledges (collecting the past lives -- there is samsara and suffering; seeing the reappearance of beings according to their kamma -- there is the law of kamma; and the knowledge of liberation -- there is nibbana).

I've made many mistakes in my previous posts, which are impossible to correct one by one. Please be critical about my previous posts and about the suttas you read. True teachings of the Buddha are rare.

Success in finding the Buddha's true teaching!

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