A comprehensive list of suttas on rebirth ?

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Dhammavamsa
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Re: A comprehensive list of suttas on rebirth ?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

mjaviem wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:47 am
cappuccino wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:29 am
mjaviem wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:10 pm I am interested about a Sutta where the Buddha says that somebody … was a specific being on whatever realm in a former life.
Araka's Teaching
Arakenanusasani Sutta wrote:Once, monks, there was a teacher named Araka, a sectarian leader who was free of passion for sensual pleasures.

Now at that time, monks, the human life span was 60,000 years …
Thanks but I mean a Sutta related to rebirth saying who somebody was in the past. Your example in AN 7.70 doesn't mention what happened to Araka after he died, it's not a Sutta related to rebirth.
There are many such suttas across the Pitakas.
For example, Ghatikara Sutta, Maratajjaniya sutta, etc. You should familiarise yourself with Suttas.
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mjaviem
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Re: A comprehensive list of suttas on rebirth ?

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Dhammavamsa wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 7:01 pm There are many such suttas across the Pitakas.
For example, Ghatikara Sutta, Maratajjaniya sutta, etc...
Thank you for your reply. This time you do point me to Suttas where it is stated about the previous lifes of humans. In MN 81 it is the very Buddha who was formerly Jotipāla.
... Ānanda, you might think: ‘Surely the brahmin student Jotipāla must have been someone else at that time?’ But you should not see it like this. I myself was the student Jotipāla at that time...”
And in MN 50 it is Moggallāna who was a Mara in the previous life.
... Once upon a time, Wicked One, I was a Māra named Dūsī, and I had a sister named Kāḷī...
Just as I wondered before, about the lack of examples on previous lifes of humans, now I wonder why both these counter examples you gave use the formula "Once upon a time". Does it mean this is not to be taken literally or is it that it is only a way of saying.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 7:01 pm ... You should familiarise yourself with Suttas.
I'm on it.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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DooDoot
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Re: A comprehensive list of suttas on rebirth ?

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Dhammavamsa wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 7:01 pm There are many such suttas across the Pitakas.
No. Actually, the list of suttas is very few, like needles in a haystack. There appears to be tiny number of suttas from thousands that appear to literally refer to reincarnation, such Iti 22, SN 22.96 and the six suttas below:
Now, monks, the thought may occur to you that the chariot maker on that occasion
was someone else, but it shouldn't be seen in that way. I myself was the chariot
maker on that occasion.

AN 3.15
Now, householder, if the thought should occur to you, ‘Perhaps it was someone else who
at that time was Velāma the brahman, who gave that gift, that great gift,’ that’s not
how it should be seen. I was Velāma the brahman at that time.

AN 9.20
It may be, Ānanda, that this will occur to you: ‘Now, at that time the brahman youth
Jotipāla was someone else.’ But this, Ānanda, should not be thought of in this way. I, at
that time, was Jotipāla the brahman youth.”

MN 81
Venerable Mahāmoggallāna saw the Evil One stuck in the throat and said, I see you there
too. You are stuck in the throat. In the past I was an Evil One named Dūsi. To me there
was a sister named Kāli. You were her son. Then you were my nephew. It was at the time of
the perfect rightfully enlightened Blessed One Kakusanda's time. To the perfect rightfully
Enlightened One, Kakusanada, there were two chief disciples named Vidura and Sañjīva

MN 50
Do you remember this, Blessed One? I remember, Pañcasikha.
I myself was the brahmin Great Steward at that time.

Ahaṃ tena samayena mahāgovindo brāhmaṇo ahosiṃ.

DN 19
I myself was King Makhādeva at that time.

MN 83
These literal reincarnation suttas appear to contradict the teaching about recollecting ‘past abodes' or 'dwellings' (‘pubbenivāsaṃ’) in SN 22.79; which appears to mean recollecting in the past when the mind ignorantly clung to one or more of the five aggregates as ‘self’; which results in the understanding of ‘not-self’:
At Savatthi. Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

When recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.

SN 22.79
Again, these reincarnation suttas may contradict MN 2, MN 38, etc, which say:
This is how he attends unwisely: ‘Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in
the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall
I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I
be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future?’ Or else he is
inwardly perplexed about the present thus: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I?
Where has this being come from? Where will it go?’

When he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in him. The view ‘self exists
for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘no self exists for me’ arises in
him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with self’ arises in him as true
and established; or the view ‘I perceive not-self with self’ arises in him as true and
established; or the view ‘I perceive self with not-self’ arises in him as true and
established; or else he has some such view as this: ‘It is this self of mine that speaks and
feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of
mine is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long
as eternity.’ This speculative view, bhikkhus, is called the thicket of views, the wilderness
of views, the contortion of views, the vacillation of views, the fetter of views.

MN 2
These literal reincarnation suttas appear to often share the phrase: “ahaṃ tena samayena” ("I myself :roll: was at that time").

Quickly researching “ahaṃ tena samayena” on Sutta Central finds it at least 22 times in the Buddhavaṃsa, twice in the Therāpadāna and once is the Therīapadāna.

Various internet pages say these texts are belated:
It is both from chronological point of view and as a class of poetical composition, [that] the
Pali Apadāna ranks with the Buddhavaṁsa and Cariyāpiṭaka. According to the traditional
enumeration of the Buddhist canonical texts, these are reckoned as the last three works
of the Khuddaka Nikāya. Even from the doctrinal point of view the three works together
show the Mahāyāna Buddhism in the making.

Buddhakhetta and Buddhāpadāna by Mr. Dwijendralal Barua, M.A
Apadana — Stories

Biographies, in verse, of the Buddha, 41 Paccekabuddhas ("silent" Buddhas), 549 arahant
bhikkhus and 40 arahant bhikkhunis. Many of these stories are characterized by flowery
paeans celebrating the glory, wonder, magnificence, etc. of the Buddha. The Apadana is
believed to be a late addition to the Canon, added at the Second and Third Buddhist
Councils.

294 BE Third Council is convened by King Asoka at Pataliputra (India). Disputes on
points of doctrine lead to further schisms, spawning the Sarvastivadin and Vibhajjavadin
sects. The Abhidhamma Pitaka is recited at the Council, along with additional sections of
the Khuddaka Nikaya. The modern Pali Tipitaka is now essentially complete, although
some scholars have suggested that at least two parts of the extant Canon —
the Parivara in the Vinaya, and the Apadana in the Sutta — may date from a later period.

Access To Insight
In summary, these literal reincarnation suttas may possibly be of a genre of later-day compositions possibly ‘inserted’ into the suttas and, as said by Mr. Dwijendralal Barua, M.A, may have been the precursors of Mahayana Buddhism and, possibly, even Hinduism.
If this Jataka Tale type doctrine was developed so Buddhism gain popularity in India,it possibly ultimately lead to the demise of Buddhism in India.
One factor that contributed to the demise of Buddhism was the diminishing of Buddhism's
distinctiveness with respect to the rise of Hinduism. Though Mahayana writers were quite
critical of Hinduism, the devotional cults of Mahayana Buddhism and Hinduism likely seemed
quite similar to laity, and the developing Tantrism of both religions were also similar.
Scholars such as Adi Shankara re-energised Hinduism while borrowing Buddhist ideas, also
published influential reviews and original texts… and explained the key differences between
Hinduism and Buddhism. He stated the difference to be that Hinduism asserts "Atman (Soul,
Self) exists", while Buddhism asserts that there is "no Soul, no Self".

Wikipedia
Another literal reincarnation sutta is MN 123, which says:
I heard and learned this, venerable sir, from the Blessed One’s own lips:
‘Mindful and fully aware, Ānanda, the Bodhisatta appeared in the Tusita heaven.’
‘Mindful and fully aware the Bodhisatta passed away from the Tusita heaven and
descended into his mother’s womb.’ This too I remember as a wonderful and marvelous
quality of the Blessed One.

As soon as the Bodhisatta was born, he stood firmly with his feet on the ground; then he
took seven steps facing north, and with a white parasol held over him, he surveyed each
quarter and uttered the words of the Leader of the Herd: “I am the highest in the world; I
am the best in the world; I am the foremost in the world. This is my last birth; now there
is no renewal of being for me.”

MN 123
The supernatural impression of MN 123 appears certainly unusual, particularly the declarations of "I am" by the newly born Bodhisatta appearing to possibly contradict a more realistic MN 64, which states:
For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘identity,’ so how could identity view arise in him?

MN 64
MN 123 also seems unusual because it says the unenlightened Bodhisatta already had mindfulness and clear-comprehension and already understood the goal of nonbecoming, which, appears strange and contradictory, because the Bodhisatta would
later have to undertake a Noble Search to discover the Path, as reported in MN 26.

In conclusion, these literal reincarnation suttas may possibly indicate Buddhism was altered from a meditative path of visible reality towards a doctrine of reincarnation due to the worldly ambitions of King Ashoka and the relevant Buddhist clergy.

:smile:
mjaviem wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:16 pmI'm on it.
I'll make it much easier for you, above. Dhammavamsa's statement: "There are many such suttas across the Pitakas" appears untrue and merely a generalization from inaccurate speech. :smile:

Also note none of the above literal reincarnation suttas appear to fall into the definition of the Buddha's Dhamma, which is "visible in the here-&-now and experienced by the wise for themselves".
Whoever teaches Dhamma to others with the thought:
Yo ca kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṁcitto paresaṁ dhammaṁ deseti:

‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha—visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.

‘svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhīti.
:bow:

Oh! May they listen to the teaching from me. When they’ve heard it, may they understand the teaching and practice accordingly.’

Aho vata me dhammaṁ suṇeyyuṁ, sutvā ca pana dhammaṁ ājāneyyuṁ, ājānitvā ca pana tathattāya paṭipajjeyyun’ti.

So they teach others because of the natural excellence of the teaching, out of compassion, kindness, and sympathy.

Iti dhammasudhammataṁ paṭicca paresaṁ dhammaṁ deseti, kāruññaṁ paṭicca anuddayaṁ paṭicca anukampaṁ upādāya paresaṁ dhammaṁ deseti.

Such a mendicant’s teaching is pure.

Evarūpassa kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno parisuddhā dhammadesanā hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn16.3/en/sujato
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BrokenBones
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Re: A comprehensive list of suttas on rebirth ?

Post by BrokenBones »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:40 pm
I think you should carry out an overhaul of all the suttas and let us know which ones make your canon and which ones we should ignore.
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Re: A comprehensive list of suttas on rebirth ?

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:01 pm I think you should carry out an overhaul of all the suttas and let us know which ones make your canon and which ones we should ignore.
Since i recall u claimed to know many bhikkhus, possibly you should learn what they chant each morning & evening about what the Dhamma is. They only chant the following :
‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha—visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.

‘svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhīti.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: A comprehensive list of suttas on rebirth ?

Post by BrokenBones »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:40 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:01 pm I think you should carry out an overhaul of all the suttas and let us know which ones make your canon and which ones we should ignore.
Since i recall u claimed to know many bhikkhus, possibly you should learn what they chant each morning & evening about what the Dhamma is. They only chant the following :
‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha—visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.

‘svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhīti.
:thinking:

I don't see your point.

And I may be mistaken but I can't recall saying I know 'many' monks... I know a few... maybe I said it in a previous life.

:jawdrop: just look at all those 'I's'... call the pronoun police.
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Re: A comprehensive list of suttas on rebirth ?

Post by DNS »

mjaviem wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 3:59 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 2:06 pm ... Buddha explicitly taught also about literal rebirth, imo...
I don't think the Buddha taught that some bones that lie on a graveyard can be linked to some animal roaming in the wilderness.
Actually, there are reports of that interspersed throughout the Pali Canon. It's not like someone can direct you to one specific chapter in the SN or AN and you'll find a bunch of past life stories there. They are throughout the Canon. In another thread, robert posted an example, yes, it's in the Jataka thread, but he's quoting from the Therigatha of the KN (not Jataka or Jataka tales):
Isidasi

I know my last seven births and what caused
all that has happened to me in this life,
I will tell that to you, listen carefully to it.
I was once a wealthy goldsmith in Erakaccha city,
but my youth made my head spin,
and I had sex with the wife of another.

When I died, I cooked in hell for a long time,
and then rising from there, I entered the womb of a monkey.
A great monkey, the leader of the troop,
castrated me when I was seven days old,
this was the karmic fruit for adultery.

It was in the Sindhava forest where I died,
and then I entered the womb of a one-eyed, lame goat.
As a goat, I was castrated,
and I was always afflicted by vermin,
children rode me for twelve years,
all for my adultery.

After my death as a goat, I was given birth by a cow
belonging to a cattle-trader, a calf with the red color of lac,
I was castrated when I was twelve months old.
I had to draw carts, plows, and wagons,
I was blind, always afflicted, and unhealthy, all for my
adultery.

After my death as a bullock, I was born on the street,
in the household of a slave,
I was neither male or female,
I was the third sex, all for my adultery.

I died when I was thirty and was reborn a carter’s daughter,
in a family that was miserable and poor, always
under attack from many creditors.
When the interest that was owed had accumulated and was
large,
a caravan-leader took me from the house by force,
and dragged me away crying.
His son Giridasa noticed that I had reached puberty
in my sixteenth year and he claimed me as his own.
He already had another wife,
someone virtuous, of good qualities, with a good reputation,
she loved her husband, but I made her hate me.

So it was all the fruit of my karma,
when they all threw me away and left,
even when I waited on them like a slave,
but now I have put an end to all that

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