So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Tutareture
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So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Tutareture »

what are some of the 'wrong'beliefs of mainstream mahayana,where one would choose theravada over it?and how do you prove these are wrong to a mahayanist?
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
SarathW
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by SarathW »

I do not think there is anything wrong with Mahayana.
It is a different path to Theravada.
They believe that you can't attain Nibbana in this life but the Theravadin believe that you can attain Nibbana in this life itself.
Mahayana is dedicated to social empowerment such as fulfilling Parami.
They do not believe that the state of Arahant is not the final Nibbana and every person should be a Buddha to do so.
If I am not wrong, they also believe is an existing reality and the past Buddhas are living there.

It is difficult to prove anything to anyone when they have strong views with craving.
Can you prove that there is no Nibbana to a Buddhist?
Last edited by SarathW on Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr. Seek
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Mr. Seek »

It's complicated because Mahayana is a movement while Theravada is a sect. One is broad and contains many different sects, while the other is a sect.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:54 am and how do you prove these are wrong to a mahayanist?
It's super rude to try to tell someone their religion is wrong. Wars have started over less. Maybe don't do that.

The more I practice and study the dhamma, the more I see similarities between mahayana and theravada. I do think there are wrong things in mahayana but I'm not going to tell people they are wrong and they should abandon their beliefs.
People have become fully enlightened while practicing Zen or Tibetan Buddhism or whatever, so there is truth to be found there.

Here's a good Buddha quote for you, Dhammapada #50. It says we should be mostly concerned with our own behavior..
Verse 50: One should not consider the faults of others, nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds. One should consider only whether one has done or not done good or bad deeds.
Mr. Seek
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Mr. Seek wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:54 am It's complicated because Mahayana is a movement while Theravada is a sect. One is broad and contains many different sects, while the other is a sect.
... in other words, different Mahayana sects have different beliefs and practices. They can't be generalized easily. Some people think that there are some foundatiomal tenents to the Mahayana, but even those are interpreted differently by the different sects, to say nothing of the sub-sects.

To compare Theravada with Mahayana is like to compare France with Asia. Nothing wrong with it, but Asia is a continent while France is a country. There are many different countries in Asia, all with different languages, customs, religions, histories, etc.

Also, Theravada is not perfect either, if we have to use the suttas as the basis of grading. Theravada has many sub-sects too, and sub-sub-sects.
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:57 am People have become fully enlightened while practicing Zen or Tibetan Buddhism or whatever, so there is truth to be found there.
Right. The Buddha said any method that contains the eightfold path can lead to liberation. Confronting others about their beliefs definitely doesn't.
Mr. Seek
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Right. The Buddha said any method that contains the eightfold path can lead to liberation.
In that case we may as well discard more than half of the Theravada suttas, because the 8FP is a very small teaching in the grand scheme of things.
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Dan74
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Dan74 »

Wise replies above.

I'd say that what is wrong with Mahayana is that it is practiced and also generally taught by sentient beings, hence there's going to be confusion and wrong views galore.

Not too different to Theravada, perhaps.
_/|\_
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

One should study and understand about the four great references.
Mahāparinibbāna Sutta wrote:“In the first place, monks, a monk may say thus: ‘From the mouth of the Blessed One himself have I heard, from his own mouth have I learned it. This is the Dhamma, this the discipline, this the doctrine of the teacher." The words spoken, monks, by that monk should neither be received with praise nor treated with scorn. Without praise and without scorn every word and syllable should be carefully understood, and compared with the discourses and the rules of discipline. If when so compared they do not harmonise with the discourses, and do not fit in with the rules of discipline, then you may conclude, ‘Verily, this is not the word of the Blessed One, and has been wrongly grasped by that monk.’ Therefore, monks, you should reject it. However, if they harmonise with the discourses and fit in with the rules of discipline, then you may conclude, ‘Verily, this is the word of the Blessed One, and has been well grasped by that monk.’ This, monks, you should remember as the first great reference.
In brief, whatever the source for something that claims to be the teaching of the Buddha, one should compare it to the Dhamma and Discipline. If it does not align with it, reject it as it does not lead to the end of suffering.

Another method is summarised in the Buddha’s Brief Discourse to Mahāpajāpati Gotamī, his step-mother.
Saṃkitta Suttaṃ wrote:“Those things, Gotamī, regarding which you know, ‘These things lead to passion (sarāgāya), not to dispassion (virāgāya); to bondage (saṃyogāya), not to freedom from bondage (visaṃyogāya); to accumulation (ācayāya), not to relinquishment (apacayāya); to having many wishes (mahicchatāya), not to having few wishes (appicchatāya); to discontent (asantuṭṭhiyā), not to contentment (santuṭthiyā); to association (saṅgaṇikāya), not to seclusion (pavivekāya); to laziness (kosajjāya), not to arousing energy (vīriyārambhāya); to being easy to support (subharatāya), not to being hard to support (dubbharatāyā),’ definitely, Gotamī, you can decide, ‘This is not Dhamma, this is not Vinaya, this is not the Teacher’s instruction.’
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Mr. Seek wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:19 am
Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Right. The Buddha said any method that contains the eightfold path can lead to liberation.
In that case we may as well discard more than half of the Theravada suttas, because the 8FP is a very small teaching in the grand scheme of things.
I don't see it that way. The eightfold path is the map, but having a map does not help you understand the territory and how to thrive in it. The suttas provide that further information so that you can thoroughly get to know the land you are navigating.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by cappuccino »

Furthermore, the monk who is a learner reflects, 'Is there outside of this doctrine & discipline any brahman or contemplative who teaches the true, genuine, & accurate Dhamma like the Blessed One?'

And he discerns, 'No, there is no brahman or contemplative outside of this doctrine & discipline who teaches the true, genuine, & accurate Dhamma like the Blessed One.'

This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'



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Ontheway
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Ontheway »

Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

The following things, in my opinion, are wrong with Mahayana Buddhism:

1. Their forgery of sutras as Buddhavacana;

2. Their embracement of various buddhas, bodhisattvas, and gods not mentioned within the Pali Canon; and

3. The strange doctrines within their sutras (such as the embrace of atman in the Nirvana Sutra, the claims that the Buddha Shakyamuni did not really need to seek enlightenment as Prince Gautama in the Lotus Sutra, and the claim in the Lotus Sutra that Shakyamuni Buddha lied to most of his disciples about what being an Arahant meant).
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cappuccino
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by cappuccino »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:25 pm The following things, in my opinion, are wrong with Mahayana Buddhism:
:goodpost:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Most people who criticise Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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