So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
alicem
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by alicem »

Most of the opinion that I've seen Theravadin teachers have toward Mahayana is chauvinistic rather than based on scriptural or rational reasons, such as considering bhikkhunis ordained in the Dharmaguptaka lineage invalid because Mahayana's "heresy" has invalidated it. As much as I'm skeptical of the idea of pure lands or the idea that Mahayana sutras were divinely revealed, there's a lot of bad faith criticisms directed toward Mahayana schools such as Yogacara and Madhyamaka that doesn't even try to learn about them.
Inedible
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Inedible »

It seems to me that the Mahayana has problems with Theravada. The Sutras are frequently getting in remarks such as that people working on their own Enlightenment don't care about other people, even though we have The Four Immeasurables.
Spiny Norman
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Inedible wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:31 am It seems to me that the Mahayana has problems with Theravada.
And Vajrayana has problems with both. :toilet:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:35 pm
Inedible wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:31 am It seems to me that the Mahayana has problems with Theravada.
And Vajrayana has problems with both. :toilet:
Not only that! It has problems with both while simultaneously pretending to be one of them!
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TRobinson465
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by TRobinson465 »

The biggest criticism, from a Theravada POV, is the existence of mahayana sutras that have no basis in historical authenticity. I wouldnt say its any more wrong than any other religion, but thats generally the common criticism from a theravada point of view. but of course. there are alleged forgeries in the pali canon as well, and a good number of people on this very forum allege large parts of the theravada pali canon as not being historically authentic so its not like mahayana is uniquely "wrong" any more than Jews believe christians are are wrong and vice versa, or that sri lankan buddhists think thai buddhists are wrong on the parts where thier canons differ and so on. Although with mahayana sutras i think fair to say its less debatable these probably arent historically authentic.

Of course the people who allege that only the main Nikaya's of the pali canon are actually authentic and the other parts arent could make an equally logical argument that Theravada is "wrong" because they generally believe in the parts of the canon these people say arent authentic.
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Dan74
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Dan74 »

I'm not sure where this notion that an evil Mahayanist sat somewhere forging sutras and pretending to be the Buddha arose, but it seems to be very far from how things were done in Ancient times.

Another thing to be borne in mind is that as Williams argues, it was centuries before Mahayana became an identifiable religious movement, rather than one of several streams within Buddhism, with monks of various stripes often living in the same Sanghas.

Whether the Mahayana sutras truly have the hallowed origin the tradition ascribes to them or they were initially teachings that later took on sutra status, as is more in line with what scholars would say (I am guessing), the idea that some corrupt monk declaring that he uniquely preserved a sutra spoken by the Buddha, seems to me to be absurd. He would've been laughed out of the Sangha.

Teachings were oral for a great many years, right, so it is little wonder that after several centuries, there'd be some divergence and doubts as to provenance. Teachings were labelled Buddhavacana that we not, some that were, had been lost, etc etc. The existence of Agamas to corroborate the suttas preserved by the Theravada is not so convincing is it, since they may have had a common later origin, by which time a lot of textual corruption had taken place.

But luckily, the Dhamma is a practice rather than a revelation, and much of the practice instruction is clear, works well and leads to ending of ignorance. These useful instructions abound in each Buddhist traditions. They've been preserved, elaborated on and adapted to the people and the times over the centuries by enlightenment masters in the Mahayana and Vajrayana. Hence some differences in methods.
_/|\_
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:05 am I'm not sure where this notion that an evil Mahayanist sat somewhere forging sutras and pretending to be the Buddha arose, but it seems to be very far from how things were done in Ancient times.
Evil is such a strong word that I would hesitate to use it for such Buddhist forgers - even as I disagree with their actions and very often with their doctrines.
Disciple
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Disciple »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:57 pm Most people who criticise Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
So true.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Spiny Norman »

You don't hear silly sectarian nonsense from people with a broad experience of Buddhist schools. Just saying.
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Dan74
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Dan74 »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:50 pm You don't hear silly sectarian nonsense from people with a broad experience of Buddhist schools. Just saying.
Sure. But that said, we are all steeped in ignorance. It's not easy to begin to see the true extent of it, let alone develop true wisdom. So it just stands to reason that most of us, most of the time, are just mouthing off about things we know very little about. I'm no exception.
_/|\_
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