Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ontheway
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Ontheway »

Since you don't know, on what basis you claimed that there is a "Soul" in real and ultimate sense?

Wouldn't it be better if you try to set aside this idea, and think like Anattalakkhana Sutta for once?

Take it as a mind experiment. ;)
"Those streams which flow throughout the world, Ajita", said the Lord, "Mindfulness serves to curb them in, This I call the restraint of the streams. But wisdom only turns them off."

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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:03 pm think like Anattalakkhana Sutta for once?
No-self or Not-self?


Learn now or perhaps never
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Ontheway
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Ontheway »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:07 pm
Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:03 pm think like Anattalakkhana Sutta for once?
No-self or Not-self?


Learn now or perhaps never
I have read it, I think this article might just in line with what I said. The notion of "Self" is merely illusion and don't even need to be addressed.

To find a "Self" within or without five aggregates is fruitless. To say "There is no Self" is to admit there is a "Self" to begin with and to be denied.

Hence, the notion of "Self" is merely illusion, not real, not present in ultimate sense.
"Those streams which flow throughout the world, Ajita", said the Lord, "Mindfulness serves to curb them in, This I call the restraint of the streams. But wisdom only turns them off."

(Sn 1035)
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cappuccino
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:05 pm Hence, the notion of "Self" is merely illusion, not real, not present in ultimate sense.
No self is not the teaching
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Ontheway »

Then you will be trapped in this "Self" notion, unable to come out from it. :?

Even if we use the English term "not Self",

(1) Rupakkhandha, (2) Vedanakkhanda, (3) Saññakkhandha, (4) Saṅkhārakkhandha, and (5) Viññāṇakkhandha are Anicca (impermanent), as the Buddha taught in both Suttas and Abhidhamma. Since these five aggregates are Anicca, they are all subject to sufferings (Dukkha). Since these aggregates exhibits Anicca and Dukkha characteristics, they are not to be known as "This is I, mine, my Self.", instead, they should be known as "This is not me, not mine, not my Self" (Anatta). Why? Because it lacks of possessiveness and couldn't standalone. The five aggregates are subject to conditionality, as demonstrated in the Teaching of Dependent Origination.

And since these five aggregates are not Self, the notion of "Self" is not to be found in these five aggregates, and since the notion of "Self" cannot be established on any of these five aggregates; therefore, the notion of "Self" is not real and not present in ultimate reality.

With that being said, if one sees "Self" as an illusion, merely a false mental fabrication due to craving, which cannot be found as "real and present in ultimate reality"...for if everything that constitute a being is subjected to the law of Paṭiccasamuppāda, how can one maintains a view of "Self to be maintained or annihilated"?

By this understanding, Sakkaya Ditthi can be abandoned.
"Those streams which flow throughout the world, Ajita", said the Lord, "Mindfulness serves to curb them in, This I call the restraint of the streams. But wisdom only turns them off."

(Sn 1035)
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

:candle:
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Rambutan »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:35 pm
Rambutan wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:21 pm All this is really saying is that
Definitely not what it’s saying
Well if not, then what are you reading in it?
“Then again, the disciple of the noble ones, having gone into the
wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this:
‘This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.’ Practicing and
frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that
dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of
nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up
of the body, after death, it’s possible that this leading-on consciousness of
his will go to the dimension of nothingness.”
Translation:
If a monk goes into the forest to meditate, and thinks, “nothing is here that can be called ‘self’” and develops confidence in that (sunnata), then either he will attain realization now or he won’t, or when he dies, maybe he will and maybe he won’t. (But the point here is that contemplation on sunnata at least opens the door to the possibility of attainment. In this context, “attain” means liberation through direct perception of sunnata).

“Dimension of nothingness” is a ridiculous wording. Sounds like some kind of black hole or something.
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:34 pm
cappuccino wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:35 pm Definitely not what it’s saying
Well if not, then what are you reading in it?

“Dimension of nothingness” is a ridiculous wording. Sounds like some kind of black hole or something.
The Thirty-one Planes of Existence

(30) Nothingness (akiñcaññayatanupaga deva)

The inhabitants of these realms are possessed entirely of mind. Having no physical body …
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:34 pm then what are you reading in it?
I keep speaking of (the difference between) no self and not self


because no self doesn't lead to Nirvana
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:54 pmbecause no self doesn't lead to Nirvana
wrong
Rambutan wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:34 pmIn this context, “attain” means liberation through direct perception of sunnata).

“Dimension of nothingness” is a ridiculous wording. Sounds like some kind of black hole or something.
This is wrong too. This passage isn't about emptiness. It's about the ākiṃcanyāyatana.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not the one and not another,
unending and impermanent --
of the many Buddhas' transformative teachings,
this is that sweet nectar's taste.

For if a Buddha is not born in the world,
or if the Buddhadharma is completely extinct,
all of the wisdom of the Pratyekabuddhas
would separately arise (from it).

(MMK XVIII.11-12 Madhyamakaśāstra T 1564.23c16)
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:57 pm wrong
No self leads to the realm of nothingness
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:58 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:57 pm wrong
No self leads to the realm of nothingness
No. You misquoted and misunderstood the sutra and seem to not be interested in finding out what it really means.
Not the one and not another,
unending and impermanent --
of the many Buddhas' transformative teachings,
this is that sweet nectar's taste.

For if a Buddha is not born in the world,
or if the Buddhadharma is completely extinct,
all of the wisdom of the Pratyekabuddhas
would separately arise (from it).

(MMK XVIII.11-12 Madhyamakaśāstra T 1564.23c16)
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cappuccino
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:00 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:58 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:57 pm wrong
No self leads to the realm of nothingness
No.
waste your life then
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:03 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:00 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:58 pm

No self leads to the realm of nothingness
No.
waste your life then
To you, I'm sure that "actual authentic Buddhism" seems like "wasting your life."
Not the one and not another,
unending and impermanent --
of the many Buddhas' transformative teachings,
this is that sweet nectar's taste.

For if a Buddha is not born in the world,
or if the Buddhadharma is completely extinct,
all of the wisdom of the Pratyekabuddhas
would separately arise (from it).

(MMK XVIII.11-12 Madhyamakaśāstra T 1564.23c16)
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cappuccino
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:04 pm To you, I'm sure that "actual authentic Buddhism" seems like "wasting your life."
I don’t need to translate things myself


I merely need to understand
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