Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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tiltbillings
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Actually I fully agree with Tilt's wording "one does not have a direct perception of impermanence"
I do too. But I would add that "perception" isn't the best translation of saññā. "Recognition" is better.
I would opt for "apperception."
Secondly, saññā is also a fabrication (saṅkhāra). Thirdly, the recognition of impermanence (aniccasaññā) would be more accurately phrased as the recognition of the absence of permanence. Similarly, the recognition of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhasaññā) is the recognition of the absence of satisfactoriness in that which is not permanent. And the recognition of selflessness (anattasaññā) is the recognition of the absence of a permanent and satisfactory self in that which is not permanent and not satisfactory.
The question in all of this were is yathā-bhūta as opposed to just constructing more fabrications?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I mean of course there is always a direct perception underlying every conceptual fabrication
Okay, but the question is, does the "conceptual fabrication" accurately reflect the perception?
It arises dependent on the "direct" perception and other causes and conditions. Since an effect is not its own cause I cannot conceive of what "accurately reflect" may mean in this context.
That is an interesting question. As William James has said: “What you see is what you bring." So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Here is a thread about the objections to Ven Analayo's supposed wrong views about sati and I am seeing, instead, a fair amount of agreement with Ven Analayo's analysis.
IMO Ven. Anālayo could have spent more time and effort detailing the fundamentals of sati. He begins in the right place (p. 46):
  • The noun sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember. Sati in the sense of "memory" occurs on several occasions in the discourses, and also in the standard definitions of sati given in the Abhidhamma and the commentaries.
But only three paragraphs later he is off stating his theory that sati "functions as awareness of the present moment." So much for the fundamentals and details offered in the ancient Pāli texts....
He could have and should have offered a great deal more detail, but I also think he is quite correct in this:

Page 47-8: This connotation of sati as memory appears also in its formal definition
in the discourses, which relates sati to the ability of calling to
mind what has been done or said long ago.16 A closer examination of
this definition, however, reveals that sati is not really defined as
memory, but as that which facilitates and enables memory. What
this definition of sati points to is that, if sati is present, memory will
be able to function well.17 Understanding sati in this way facilitates relating it to the context
of satipatthana, where it is not concerned with recalling past events,
but functions as awareness of the present moment.18 In the context
of satipatthana meditation, it is due to the presence of sati that one is
able to remember what is otherwise only too easily forgotten: the
present moment.


16 e.g. at M I356.
17 The passage at M I 356 could then be rendered as: "he is mindful, being endowed with
highest discriminative mindfulness (so that) things said or done long ago are recalled
and remembered." Nanamoli 1995=P.1252n-560, explains: "keen attentiveness to the
present forms the basis for an accurate memory of the past." Nanananda 1984: p.28,
points out: "mindfulness and memory ... the keenness of the one naturally leads to
the clarity of the other."
18 Nanaponika 1992:P.9; Nanavira 1987=P.382; and T.W. Rhys Davids 1966:vol.Il, P·322.
Griffith 1992:p 111, explains: "the basic meaning of smrti and derivatives in Buddhist
technical discourse ... has to do with observation and attention, not with awareness
of past objects."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?
When we stop buying into what Ñāṇananda has referred to as the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness." That is, the "myth of the given."
Thank you, but that really, probably, needs a bit more detail to be meaningful. That does not answer the question in its context.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:Can you explain then how it would make sense that the ability to recollect the past would be developped by observing the reality of the body and mind in the present moment, otherwise than by the way explained in the twofold definition I gave above (see immediately previous post)?
Sati (remembrance) means either recollection of past events, or remembrance in the present. In the context of Satipatthana, it's remembrance in the present.
And how is that different from what Ven Analayo has put forth?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:quote]That is an interesting question. As William James has said: “What you see is what you bring." So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?
When volitional formations cease there is no "conceptual structuring".
Then upon what basis do they cease?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:I've posted dozens of replies here on DW dealing with this specific issue.
That is nice, but I do not read everyone's posts.
tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question in its context.
Sure it does.
If you say so.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:I've posted dozens of replies here on DW dealing with this specific issue.
That is nice, but I do not read everyone's posts.
You've actively participated in numerous threads dealing with the subject, often directly responding to the posts in question. In point of fact, just in the past few weeks I deleted a post which you objected to, which pertained to this issue in the context of the two truths theory.
Good grief.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:He could have and should have offered a great deal more detail, but I also think he is quite correct in this:

Understanding sati in this way facilitates relating it to the context
of satipatthana, where it is not concerned with recalling past events,
but functions as awareness of the present moment.18 In the context
of satipatthana meditation, it is due to the presence of sati that one is
able to remember what is otherwise only too easily forgotten: the
present moment.
As I've already mentioned to Dukkhanirodha, "present moment awareness" is viññāṇa. Specifically, the five sensory consciousnesses. It isn't sati. Sati functions to direct awareness away from the five strands of sensual pleasure and place, develop, & maintain awareness within the domain of any one of the four satipaṭṭhānas.
That is assuming that these terms have set in concrete, are not multi-valent in meaning depending upon context, and have no non-overlapping uses/meanings with other words, but then that would really describe Pali as it is used in the suttas. So far, I have not seen anything in this thread or the related threads that comes close to laying waste to Ven Analayo's position.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So far, I have not seen anything in this thread or the related threads that comes close to laying waste to Ven Analayo's position.
"Laying waste"?...There's no need to "lay waste" to anything. Let's get real -- you are always ready to attack anything which questions the dubious assumptions of Burmese vipassanā. Assumptions which are old and boring and better set aside when writing a doctoral dissertation in 2002.
He said, laying waste (or trying to), to Burmese vipassana. The dubious assumptions were certainly put forth by learned doctors of the Theravada. They certainly are open to criticism. What this -- better set aside when writing a doctoral dissertation in 2002 -- damdifino. Until you explain it, it is cryptic stuff that says nothing.

As for attacking "anything which questions the dubious assumptions of Burmese vipassanā," I have yet to see anything here that yet successfully questions the supposed dubious assumptions of Burmese vipassana. I see a lot of oppositional pontificating about it, I see somethings that are quite good and interesting in opposition, but I have yet to see anything definative that would change my view about things. I think, in general, these Burmese vipassana guys got it right.

I do not push Burmese vipassana, but I will defend it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What this -- better set aside when writing a doctoral dissertation in 2002 -- damdifino. Until you explain it, it is cryptic stuff that says nothing.
Anālayo's book is based on his doctoral dissertation.
And it is a good one.
tiltbillings wrote:I do not push Burmese vipassana, but I will defend it.
That's fine. And those of us who are quite unconcerned with the apologetics of Burmese vipassanā will continue to post here on DW in the midst of your protests and complaints.
You seem to be implying that apologetics is not a good thing, but like anything it depends. As far as my protest and complaints go, they certainly are a valid response to the those who are, to use your word, unconcerned about accurately portraying the Burmese vipassana traditions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?
Ñāṇa wrote:When we stop buying into what Ñāṇananda has referred to as the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness." That is, the "myth of the given."
tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question in its context.
Ñāṇa wrote:Sure it does.
Yes - it sure does - very much so.
Okay, then what is the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness?" And this -- 'That is, the "myth of the given"' -- means what? While these expressions may mean something to you two, they very may not mean anything to others reading this, which is to say, then, the response does not answer the question in the context it was asked.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sati (remembrance) means either recollection of past events, or remembrance in the present. In the context of Satipatthana, it's remembrance in the present.
And how is that different from what Ven Analayo has put forth?
Ven. Analayo writes that in the context of Satipatthana, 'sati' isn't related to memory, but means instead "present moment awareness", "bare attention", etc.
Does not answer my question, nor does it help when you take what Ven Analayo has to say out of its full context.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Sati (remembrance) means either recollection of past events, or remembrance in the present. In the context of Satipatthana, it's remembrance in the present.
And how is that different from what Ven Analayo has put forth?
Dmytro wrote:Ven. Analayo writes that in the context of Satipatthana, 'sati' isn't related to memory, but means instead "present moment awareness", "bare attention", etc.
Does not answer my question, nor does it help when you take what Ven Analayo has to say out of it full context.
OK, I will rephrase. I wrote that in the context of Satipatthana, sati is remembrance, i.e. is related to memory. Ven. Analayo writes that in this context, 'sati' isn't related to memory. That's the difference.
Okay, thanks, and in this I'll go with Ven Analayo. He makes a better case.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Okay, then what is the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness?" And this -- 'That is, the "myth of the given"' -- means what? While these expressions may mean something to you two, they very may not mean anything to others reading this, which is to say, then, the response does not answer the question in the context it was asked.
How about this (as a rough approximation, which I'll allow Geoff to improve on).... it's the taking of that which is experienced as being objectively real, rather than rightly seeing whatever is experienced as a fabrication. Put another way, it relates to not correctly seeing the whirlpool/vortex that exists between consciousness and name-and-form, and therefore assuming that the consciousness has not been fashioned with respect to nama-rupa.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I certainly do not know of any Buddhist meditation practice that advocates taking what is experienced as objectively real, but is seeing the conditioned rise and fall of the mind/body (inclusive of "consciousness") process is a nice way of seeing that there is no thing upon which to stand, also, in time, that there is no standee.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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