28 Buddhas

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
santa100
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by santa100 »

There's no doubt the 3 Buddhas must've come from earlier civilizations. But with all the scientific data we've known "so far" (you could google to verify those numbers in my post above), it's highly unlikely all three could've taken "our" Earth for home within such short time frame. Remember there are other "Earths" within this 14-billion-year-old universe (our Earth is about 4.5 billion years old) and it's statistically impossible to say we're the only "human" realm within this boundless space. Beside, if there're only 4 Buddhas who visited this fortunate aeon, and one already took residence on "our" Earth, it's only fair if the other 3 took up residence somewhere else to help E.T's cross their own ocean of suffering right??... :smile:
Coyote
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by Coyote »

santa100 wrote:There's no doubt the 3 Buddhas must've come from earlier civilizations. But with all the scientific data we've known "so far" (you could google to verify those numbers in my post above), it's highly unlikely all three could've taken "our" Earth for home within such short time frame. Remember there are other "Earths" within this 14-billion-year-old universe (our Earth is about 4.5 billion years old) and it's statistically impossible to say we're the only "human" realm within this boundless space. Beside, if there're only 4 Buddhas who visited this fortunate aeon, and one already took residence on "our" Earth, it's only fair if the other 3 took up residence somewhere else to help E.T's cross their own ocean of suffering right??... :smile:
The only trouble with that is that places on "our" earth are named, in India and Nepal. Unless you are suggesting that each earth is exactly the same..? Even so, if they were born on other planets, wouldn't that make then Buddhas of other word system rather than our own?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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santa100
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by santa100 »

Statistically speaking, I'm willing to bet that "India" or "Nepal" are not single and unique names exclusively used only for "our" Earth. Even on this very Earth, how many John's or Smith's or Coyote's or Santa's out there? Also, what criteria to be used to differentiate "their" world system versus "our" world system?
fabianfred
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by fabianfred »

I would tend to believe that the 28 Buddhas reffered to were all on this Earth..... or previous incarnations of it in previous aeons.
Also i would think that if other planets out there have sentient beings...then they also probably have hell realms, animal realms, heaven realms etc. and perhaps also buddhas to help them escape their own cycles of rebirth in their samsaras......(my own logic here....nothing written.)
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ground
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by ground »

Coyote wrote:I am just interested to read about other peoples take on the previous Buddhas mentioned in the Pali Canon.
A metaphor which means that wisdom has always been occuring, is always occuring and will be always occuring ... somewhere ... most times fluctuating, arising and fading away in one instant and rarely abiding across many instants. It has nothing to do with fictions like reincarnations or some trancendent Buddha manifesting as individuals.

Kind regards
fabianfred
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by fabianfred »

....and with a simple stroke of his pen TMingyur dissmisses it all as fictional rubbish...
very helpful and informative....
he can no more prove the unreality of other realms, karma and rebirth than i can their reality,
chownah
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by chownah »

fabianfred wrote:....and with a simple stroke of his pen TMingyur dissmisses it all as fictional rubbish...
very helpful and informative....
he can no more prove the unreality of other realms, karma and rebirth than i can their reality,
Of course you are correct in saying that TMingyur can not prove the unreality of other realms but then to me it didn't seem like he was trying to prove anything....to me it just seemed like he was giving his views on the topic just like Coyote asked......I guess....what is not so clear to me is whether in your post you are giving your views on TMingyur's post or if you are giving your views on the provability or unprovability of various concepts.....
chownah
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Alexei
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by Alexei »

  • The story of the four encounters is told of Vipassi, six Buddhas back (DN II, 21–9). According to this text, the Mahâpadana Sutta, the early lives (and to some extent the later lives) of all Buddhas follow a very similar pattern, and the five Buddhas between Vipassi and Gotama will have experienced the same encounters. I have elsewhere (Gombrich, 1980) published a theory about the origin of the doctrine of former Buddhas, and, separately, a theory about why at first there is a set of seven (Gombrich, 1992c).
Does anyone know how to find these texts?
santa100
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by santa100 »

We don't have to take the metaphor approach. The literal meaning of DN. 14 has no contradiction with modern science. Multiple dimensions, multi-verse, dark matter/energy are at the bleeding edge of modern physics which could only validate instead of disprove what the Buddha taught. Keeping this in mind, we're much more fortunate than the folks back in the 15th century, when their standard belief was that the earth was flat and at the center of the universe. With that kind of mindset, they must've had a much tougher time making sense of the Buddha's teaching than we do nowadays. So, keep an opened mind for the ride's just begun and we'll see how deep the rabbit hole goes..

Ref:
1. Mahapadana Sutta: http://buddhasutra.com/files/mahapadana_sutta.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. List of 28 Buddhas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_th ... ht_Buddhas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Damon
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by Damon »

santa100 wrote:Then chances are that the three previous Buddhas' home was on a different Earth within a different Solar System. And the Solar System could be within the Milky Way galaxy or on a different galaxy. Notice on "our" Earth, the dinosaurs reign ended about 65 millions years ago. Homo-sapiens originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago. And batches of them only started migrating to Europe and Asia around 80,000 years ago. Human then switched from hunter-gatherer society to agricultural society at about 10,000BC. All these numbers are too small to fit into the kalpa model described for the three Buddhas in DN. 14, Mahapadana Sutta. Extend the logic to other even-more ancient Buddhas, they must've existed in previous universes before our current 14-billion-year-old universe. Then I'll have to stop there before my head explodes... :tongue:
If we limit the earlier Buddhas like Kassapa to be homo-sapiens then this will be true. But remember Earth has been around for at least 2 billion years. Several millions years ago, humanoid-like apes could have evolved and achieved advanced civilization. Convergent evolution would allow this to be a possibility. Note, some of the sutta mentioned the size of human beings during Kassapa's time to be much bigger than our current human physique...doesn't seems very homo-sapiens to me. Who knows....when us homo-sapiens go extinct and the chimpanzees evolved into an advanced civilization, they too will consider themselves as the one and only true humans ever to evolve in Earth's entire history. :jumping:
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ground
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by ground »

fabianfred wrote:....and with a simple stroke of his pen TMingyur dissmisses it all as fictional rubbish...
very helpful and informative....
he can no more prove the unreality of other realms, karma and rebirth than i can their reality,
I am sorry that my words produced these thoughts of yours but "fictional rubbish" has not been intended at all.

kind regards
Coyote
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by Coyote »

Hope it's OK to resurrect this thread.

Found this while searching for info:
http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... _03_03.pdf

Also, I don't know if any dates for the past 3 Buddha's of our age are provided in the Suttas or commentaries or elsewhere, but if anyone knows anything would they mind posting the linkey?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Yana
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by Yana »

Coyote wrote:I am just interested to read about other peoples take on the previous Buddhas mentioned in the Pali Canon.
As I understand it many are described as living is societies similar to India at the time of the Buddha - so many of the places, castes ect are the same. I'm not exactly sure how much information is given in the Canon regarding when exactly they lived - but taking this into account do you take the accounts literally? Do you think it is possible human life has arisen before on earth, to account for the dates that they were supposed to have lived? Are they just stories? Are the dates exaggerations, and if so, is there any evidence that Buddhism may have existed before the historical Buddha on earth, in other eras? Are they incompatable with scientific evolutionary theory?
Hi,

I personally think they took place in the different human planes.Much like parallel dimensions or universes that exist at the same time as ours.Some are close to destruction others are being born.In Buddhist cosmology,i think there are several realms.From human,to lower realms,to higher realms..but then it is multiplied..so it's not just ours.I think there are hundreds and thousand of other universes just like our own.And the human planes must have been quite similar to ours.This would explain why most of The Buddha's lived in a place much like India.There might have been hundreds and thousands of Indias to live in.I think we have all been born in all these different planes.The lower realm in in this universe ,a human in another universe/dimension and so forth..

well that's just what i think i might be wrong. :tongue: :anjali:
Life is preparing for Death
Coyote
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by Coyote »

Yana wrote:
Hi,

I personally think they took place in the different human planes.Much like parallel dimensions or universes that exist at the same time as ours.Some are close to destruction others are being born.In Buddhist cosmology,i think there are several realms.From human,to lower realms,to higher realms..but then it is multiplied..so it's not just ours.I think there are hundreds and thousand of other universes just like our own.And the human planes must have been quite similar to ours.This would explain why most of The Buddha's lived in a place much like India.There might have been hundreds and thousands of Indias to live in.I think we have all been born in all these different planes.The lower realm in in this universe ,a human in another universe/dimension and so forth..

well that's just what i think i might be wrong. :tongue: :anjali:
Hi Yana. The more I read the more it seems that the previous Buddhas, even the Buddhas of our own age, must have come from an earth in a previous universe rather than our own. I am unsure of the dates given in the text or the commentaries, but if wikipedia is anything to go by, the length of a kalpa does not have a single definition in the commentaries, at least, the visuddhimagga, and even then there are many "kalpas" of differing lengths. The timescale that makes most sense means that the current kalpa talked about when referring to the 3 previous Buddhas is a "maha-kalpa", according to the definition given in the wikipedia article below. This would mean, going by our current understanding of the age of the universe, that the 3 previous Buddhas of our (maha) kalpa must have existed before the current universe, and that our current universe is a "small kalpa" - one of many that make up the maha-kalpa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalpa_%28aeon%29#Buddhism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Maha-Kalpa - largest time unit in Buddhism. Ending of a Maha-Kalpa (apocalypse) can happen in three ways: fire, water and wind. It is divided into four quarters each equivalent to one Asankya-Kalpa.
First quarter - time taken for this world to form.
Second quarter - stable duration of this world where all living beings can thrive.
Third quarter - time taken for this world to be destroyed.
Fourth quarter - empty time period.

In another simple explanation, there are four different lengths of kalpas. A regular kalpa is approximately 16 million years long (16,798,000 years[1]), and a small kalpa is 1000 regular kalpas, or 16 billion years. Further, a medium kalpa is 320 billion years, the equivalent of 20 small kalpas. A great kalpa is 4 medium kalpas, or 1.28 trillion years.
:hug:
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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manas
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Re: 28 Buddhas

Post by manas »

ground wrote:
Coyote wrote:I am just interested to read about other peoples take on the previous Buddhas mentioned in the Pali Canon.
A metaphor which means that wisdom has always been occuring, is always occuring and will be always occuring ... somewhere ... most times fluctuating, arising and fading away in one instant and rarely abiding across many instants. It has nothing to do with fictions like reincarnations or some trancendent Buddha manifesting as individuals.

Kind regards
It occurred to me that, if Wisdom arises in this world itself - ie, not from 'outside', not from a transcendent source, but from within the World itself - then the World contains within itself the seeds of it's own destruction, total Unbinding.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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