can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22390
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:04 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:02 pm I doubt he would have been a fan of the formless attainments
realm of infinite consciousness


which he taught
It would be a mistake to think the sphere of infinite consciousness is the same as the Brahman/Atman idea of the Upanishads, since the oldest records we have of these attainments (the Buddhist suttas/agamas) pair them up with the annihilationists. Check out DN 1. Part of the basis for views for the annihilationists are the formless attainments. They are not matched with anyone else. Further evidence is found in the suttas (im unsure about the agamas) which ties the annihilationists to them, for the most part. The eternalists seem to have preferred the Jhānā, and we can possibly detect hints of this in the Upanishads themselves:

यदा पञ्चावतिष्ठन्ते ज्ञानानि मनसा सह ।
बुद्धिश्च न विचेष्टते तामाहुः परमां गतिम् ॥ १० ॥

yadā pañcāvatiṣṭhante jñānāni manasā saha |
buddhiśca na viceṣṭate tāmāhuḥ paramāṃ gatim ||

When the five organs of perception become still, together with the mind,
and the intellect ceases to be active: that is called the highest state.


Kaṭhopaniṣad
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:08 pm pair them up with the annihilationists.
Ramana Maharshi considered the Self to be permanent and enduring, surviving physical death.

From Wikipedia
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22390
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:08 pm pair them up with the annihilationists.
Ramana Maharshi considered the Self to be permanent and enduring, surviving physical death.

From Wikipedia
I don't doubt that for a moment.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:30 pm I don't doubt that for a moment.
you don't doubt his belief


you may doubt he was right
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22390
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:30 pm I don't doubt that for a moment.
you don't doubt his belief


you may doubt he was right
Ok...
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sunnat
Posts: 1431
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by sunnat »

Yes. But not while clinging to a belief. Somewhere along the way knowledges arise. One comes to know the truth of reincarnation, rebirth and other things that previously were beliefs and no amount of speculation will cause that knowing.
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by SteRo »

korjusk wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:46 pm Is it possible?
Thanks.
Obviously not since the definition of nirvana includes the end of rebirths ("rebirth" not "reincarnation"). However there are some philosophies that don't preach rebirths and aim at a kind of liberation nevertheless like Pyrrhonism and Epicureanism or Stoicism ... you might want to investigate into these. Perhaps one of these better suits your condition.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by asahi »

When you dont believe then you dont have to practice , why bother ?
No bashing No gossiping
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6491
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by Dhammanando »

shoenhad wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:09 pmIn the case that one does not have recollection of previous lives and therefore does not know rebirth to be a fact then what exactly is the understanding that is being described here by thanissaro and perhaps more importantly what would this knowledge of rebirth and craving be based on if recollection is indeed absent upon stream entry?
I don't know what Ajahn Thanissaro meant by his words, but if those same words had been written by me they would mean this:

The "understanding" being described would be:

1. Paññā constituted by development (bhāvanāmayā) in the case of sotāpannas who had developed knowledge of former lives beforehand;

2. Pañña constituted by hearing and thinking (sutamayā and cintāmayā) in the case of attained-to-view sotāpannas;

3. Paññā constituted by hearing alone alone in the case of faith-liberated sotāpannas.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by salayatananirodha »

I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
shoenhad
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:16 am

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by shoenhad »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:48 am
shoenhad wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:09 pmIn the case that one does not have recollection of previous lives and therefore does not know rebirth to be a fact then what exactly is the understanding that is being described here by thanissaro and perhaps more importantly what would this knowledge of rebirth and craving be based on if recollection is indeed absent upon stream entry?
I don't know what Ajahn Thanissaro meant by his words, but if those same words had been written by me they would mean this:

The "understanding" being described would be:

1. Paññā constituted by development (bhāvanāmayā) in the case of sotāpannas who had developed knowledge of former lives beforehand;

2. Pañña constituted by hearing and thinking (sutamayā and cintāmayā) in the case of attained-to-view sotāpannas;

3. Paññā constituted by hearing alone alone in the case of faith-liberated sotāpannas.
Thank you venerable. I will look into this further.
Post Reply