"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:06 am
No you won't know it for a fact unless you can recollect your previous lives. Enlightenment comes from realising the Four Noble Truths, and attaining nibbāna. We may well have unshakeable faith in the Buddha's teaching on attaining Stream-winning and realising nibbāna, but we can gain faith just through wise reflection.
Read the conversation between the Weaver's daughter and the Buddha. She attained nibbāna and became a Stream-winner on the conclusion of the Dhammapada verse. There is no reason to assume that she also attained psychic powers (abhiññā) with the ability to recollect previous lives.She obviously did not know anything about her previous existence when questioned by the Buddha. However, she did understand what the question was about, so she already had faith in the doctrine of rebirth.
Dear venerable,
In light of your response here how is one to reconcile it with thanissaro's statement on knowledge of rebirth upon stream entry: 'An essential part of even the first level of awakening described in the Canon — stream entry — confirms the rightness of right view (MN 48), which includes the understanding that there is a deathless, birthless dimension (Mv.I.23.5), and that there is a level of craving that, if not abandoned, will lead to repeated birth'
In the case that one does not have recollection of previous lives and therefore does not know rebirth to be a fact then what exactly is the understanding that is being described here by thanissaro and perhaps more importantly what would this knowledge of rebirth and craving be based on if recollection is indeed absent upon stream entry?
Last edited by shoenhad on Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:To attain nibbāna is synonymous with becoming a Stream-winner.
Why is that? Attaining nibbana is the destruction of greed-hatred-delusion. Stream-enterer doesn't destroy any of these.
I don't think I'd noticed this question Zom posed to Bhikkhu Pesala years ago, until shoenhad reincarnated this topic, but while we're at it, it's never too late to give or receive and answer....
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Stream-winners have eliminated three fetters: self-view, attachment to rites and rituals, and doubt (about the Path because they have attained it and realised nibbana).
They are not yet free from greed, hatred, and delusion. Only the Non-returner is free from greed and hatred, and only the Arahant is free from delusion/ignorance.
Absence of wrong-view and attainment of supramundane right-view is not the same as recollection of previous lives. (See the Brahmajala Sutta about how various wrong-views arise). The first is concerned with wisdom, the latter with concentration. The Bodhisatta attained the recollection of previous lives before attaining the Path. The Weaver's daughter attained the Path without attaining any knowledge of previous lives.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:40 pm
Stream-winners have eliminated three fetters: self-view, attachment to rites and rituals, and doubt (about the Path because they have attained it and realised nibbana).
They are not yet free from greed, hatred, and delusion. Only the Non-returner is free from greed and hatred, and only the Arahant is free from delusion/ignorance.
Absence of wrong-view and attainment of supramundane right-view is not the same as recollection of previous lives. (See the Brahmajala Sutta about how various wrong-views arise). The first is concerned with wisdom, the latter with concentration. The Bodhisatta attained the recollection of previous lives before attaining the Path. The Weaver's daughter attained the Path without attaining any knowledge of previous lives.
Unfortunately it is still not clear to me how this lines up with the supposed realisation upon stream entry that a level of craving can lead to repeated rebirth when there is no recollection of previous lives? Is it because there is no doubt regarding the path and realisation of the deathless dimension and therefore by extension one has faith in the rebirth 'doctrine'?
That would ultimately still be an act of faith but not the equivalent of knowledge through recollection correct?
shoenhad wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:46 pm
Unfortunately it is still not clear to me how this lines up with the supposed realisation upon stream entry that a level of craving can lead to repeated rebirth when there is no recollection of previous lives? Is it because there is no doubt regarding the path and realisation of the deathless dimension and therefore by extension one has faith in the rebirth 'doctrine'?
It is understood analytically. One does not have to directly see all of the links right in front of them to understand it. For example, the stream-enterer has not literally died but analytically they now understand that birth is a necessary condition for death due to their insights. The stream-enterer still has craving for sensual objects because they have not yet experienced the otherworldly rapture and happiness of the Jhānā. Once that is experienced lust for sensual objects drops away. If some ignorance and craving remains for said meditative states or for annihilation in the formless then they become a Non-Returner. If all ignorance and craving is done away with, even for the Jhānā or annihilation in the formless, then they become an Arahant.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:47 pm
even for the Jhānā or annihilation in the formless
the formless is not annihilation
more like oblivion
but oblivion is a state of mind
You will notice that in what I said ignorance underlies the view that one can annihilate themselves in the formless.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:57 pm
You will notice that in what I said ignorance underlies the view that one can annihilate themselves in the formless.
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:57 pm
You will notice that in what I said ignorance underlies the view that one can annihilate themselves in the formless.
Ramana Maharshi believed the formless was forever
rather it is lasting, not forever
I doubt he would have been a fan of the formless attainments, at least in how they were originally understood since they are so heavily tied to the annihilationists.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”