Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
daverupa
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by daverupa »

Time dilation effects and created memories need to be ruled out as well.

So many variables... and, if as this guy says “There is nothing you can do wrong.” - well that's just swell!

(It's part of the primary source here; let's not discount it, as it has rather dire ethical consequences...)
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by m0rl0ck »

gavesako wrote: so he calls it the Inner Science as opposed to Outer Science
That seems to me a good way to think about it. Western science disregards subjective experience and subjective experience (of suffering) is why we are all here.
Come to think of it, there is just as much objective proof of NDE's as for jhana or other meditative states, maybe more, because NDE experiencers can report events around them when they were technically dead. So in as far as we ask for proof of such experiences, arent buddhist meditators living in the proverbial glass house?
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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marc108
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by marc108 »

sounds like an OBE to a heaven realm. i think a lot of religious mythology has developed around those types of experiences.
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Mal
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by Mal »

Mawkish1983 wrote:I used to be very troubled by these discussions. I've come to realise that whether there is an afterlife or not, whether consciousness is brain-made or not, whether rebirth occurs or not, I am still going to die. Regardless of my beliefs or otherwise, death will take me.
Obviously. But where will death take you?
Mawkish1983 wrote:I'm coming to terms with that now. Nothing I have yet perceived is eternal or permanent.
How do you know? You haven't been around eternally to tell whether "something" is permanent or not. There are some objects that are always there to our perception - the sun for instance. Astronomical theory suggests that the sun will die, but that's a theory, not anything you have perceived.
Mal
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by Mal »

gavesako wrote: Then there are other well-documented cases in the West which involve young children, consider for example the boy who remembered details of his past life as a fighter pilot shot down in WWII:

http://www.reversespins.com/proofofreincarnation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The father might be seeking fame - if people believe him imagine the book sales!
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Aloka
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by Aloka »

.

A lot of these cases can be cryptomnesia. This is why a hypnotherapist with any principles wouldn't encourage clients to have "past life regression," because it's incredibly unreliable. People can be just making things up from muddled memories of films, TV, things they've read, seen and heard etc, without fully realising that's what they're doing.
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mawkish1983
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Mal wrote:
Mawkish1983 wrote:Regardless of my beliefs or otherwise, death will take me.
Obviously. But where will death take you?
Colloquialism; I mean, "I will die."
Mal wrote:
Mawkish1983 wrote:I'm coming to terms with that now. Nothing I have yet perceived is eternal or permanent.
How do you know? You haven't been around eternally to tell whether "something" is permanent or not.
A joke or a serious question? My answer, Occam's razor. Natural phenomena and their driving mechanisms can be predicted reliably to a reasonable degree of accuracy if the delusion of permanence is abandoned.
Mal wrote:There are some objects that are always there to our perception - the sun for instance. Astronomical theory suggests that the sun will die, but that's a theory, not anything you have perceived.
I'm a physicist. The physical mechanisms driving the sun are familiar to me. I have very directly perceived those mechanisms in a different context.

I'm scratching my head trying to understand what it is you're trying to tell me, Mal. I'm sorry.
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Kusala
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by Kusala »

Ven. S. Dhammika wrote an interesting article on rebirth.

You have talked a lot about rebirth but is there any proof that we will be reborn when we die?

Not only is there scientific evidence to support Buddhist belief in rebirth, it is the only after-life theory that has any evidence to support it. There is not a scrap of evidence to prove the existence of heaven and of course evidence of annihilation at death must be lacking. But during the last 30 years parapsychologists have been studying reports that some people have vivid memories of their former lives. For example, in England, a 5 year old girl said she could remember her other mother and father and she talked vividly about what sounded like the events in the life of another person. Parapsychologists were called in and asked her hundreds of questions to which she gave answers. She spoke of living in a particular village, in what appeared to be Spain. She gave the name of the village, the name of the street she lived in, her neighbours’ names and details about her everyday life there. she also tearfully spoke of how she had been struck by a car and died of her injuries two days later. When these details were checked, they were found to be accurate. There was a village in Spain with the name the child had given. There was a house of the type she had described in the street she had named. What is more, it was found that a 23 year old woman living in the house had been killed in a car accident five years before.

Now how is it possible for a five year old living in England who had never been to Spain to know all these details? And of course, this is not the only case of this type. Professor Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia’s Department of Psychology has described dozens of cases of this type in his books. He is an accredited scientist whose 25 year study of people who remember former lives is very strong evidence for the Buddhist teaching of rebirth.


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ground
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by ground »

That is cultivation of self view. :sage:
whynotme
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by whynotme »

The truth is, quite frankly we don't need proof of afterlife. Quite the opposite, we need proof of death is the end, let the scientists prove this. And it is impossible to prove death is the end.

Atheist, believes in materialism, and he identifies himself with material. But the material world is not stopped after his death. His body will come into decomposition, to basic elements like hydro, oxygen and carbon and will go everywhere, follow the rivers, follow the rain, go to the air.. and become part of plants and then animal, and then become part of future humans. Materialist, you should prove that life is ceased after death. But be inclined with the identify of the material self, they believe death is the end, a very unfair opinion.

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helparcfun
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by helparcfun »

Not only is there scientific evidence to support Buddhist belief in rebirth,
I think maybe you should supply details of this so called "scientific evidence" rather than simply relying upon what some so called scientist said. Otherwise, once again, like many other religious people, you are arguing from ignorance. That is, just because we don't have a scientific explanation yet about this and many other things, you are ignoring the possibility that there may well be another explanation which doesn't involve superstition etc.
whynotme
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by whynotme »

Hi helparcfun,

It seems that you missed the point of science theory. Science in its ultimate form, is not about evidence, it is a logical structure based on axiom. E.g you can't prove that nothing is faster than light, no one can prove that, we just accept it based on what we saw. Maybe in a galaxy far away there is something faster than light, who knows? The point is that you can't prove that there isn't anything faster than light, just bc everything we measured is slower than light then we have relative theory.

Science is a logical structure to explain the world, and if that model can predict other phenomenon then we accept it is right, until we found out phenomenon that model can't explain, then we try to find another model to explain those phenomenon.

By request evidence, you consider current model is the truth, but that approach isn't more scientific than building a new one. And I think the Buddhist model can explain the world very well. Or you can reject it, just like saying there is no evidence that nothing is faster than light.

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Mawkish1983
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Oh dear.
daverupa
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by daverupa »

whynotme wrote:Science in its ultimate form, is not about evidence
This is false, and looks a little like the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Alex123
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Post by Alex123 »

whynotme wrote:The truth is, quite frankly we don't need proof of afterlife. Quite the opposite, we need proof of death is the end, let the scientists prove this. And it is impossible to prove death is the end.
No one can disprove the existence of God who tests our faith by providing evidence to the contrary. So what we need to believe in Him simply because we cannot disprove such God? Better start going to Sunday classes than...
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."
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