Whats the problem with lay sex?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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zamotcr
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Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by zamotcr »

Hello,

Since I joined I have read a lot of lay members with hate or fear toward sex, like if the enjoyment of sex its a sin or that they will burn in hell for that.
But they only fear sex, they don't fear eating a pie, like if they were different (both are lust).

Haven't they dropped their Christian fears? I mean, for lay people and householder celibacy is not needed, even sotapanna and saka-dagami can enjoy sex! It seems to me that they are hypocrite, denigrating sex but not denigrating eating pie! (hmmm pieeeee :heart: )
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Aloka
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by Aloka »

zamotcr wrote:
Since I joined I have read a lot of lay members with hate or fear toward sex, like if the enjoyment of sex its a sin or that they will burn in hell for that.
Hi zamotcr,

Could you you quote some examples of the posts/topics you're refering to, please ?

Kind regards,

Aloka
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Mkoll
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by Mkoll »

Dear zamotcr,

The Buddha never said there was anything wrong with lay sex as long as you don't break the 3rd precept. No rape, seduction, prostitutes, wives, immature women, girls, etc.

But if you don't follow the precepts, you'll do whatever you want. Just know that you have to reap what you sow.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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manas
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by manas »

zamotcr wrote: But they only fear sex, they don't fear eating a pie, like if they were different (both are lust).
Hi zamotcr,
Orgasm akin to a shot of heroin

AMSTERDAM - According to Groningen professor Gert Holstege, an orgasm is akin to a shot of heroin and his findings could assist in the production of a so-called orgasm pill.

Holstege said the interim results of his study - which showed that an orgasm and heroin have a similar effect on the brain and could be thus similar experiences - could have positive consequences for those who have difficulty having sex, such as the elderly, newspaper De Telegraaf reported on Wednesday.

http://www.reuniting.info/science/orgas ... eroin_shot
Now tell me, is pie on the same level as that? ;)

metta,
manas :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
zamotcr
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by zamotcr »

Aloka wrote: Hi zamotcr,

Could you you quote some examples of the posts/topics you're refering to, please ?

Kind regards,

Aloka
Look at Ethical Conduct or Personal Experience subforum. A lot of people show a lot of concern about sex and preach a Bhikkhuification of laity.
manas wrote: Now tell me, is pie on the same level as that? ;)
In a buddhist context, both are the same. You may like one or another, but at the end both are lust, desire, etc. In a more physical sense, sex is of course very strong.

Of course sex is to be abandoned. But why treat it as something wrong for the householder? As far as I know, we can do a lot of progress following the 5 precepts, not only 8. We can attain high states of existence without celibacy.

Sex is not wrong for laity!
zamotcr
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by zamotcr »

Mkoll wrote:Dear zamotcr,

The Buddha never said there was anything wrong with lay sex as long as you don't break the 3rd precept. No rape, seduction, prostitutes, wives, immature women, girls, etc.

But if you don't follow the precepts, you'll do whatever you want. Just know that you have to reap what you sow.

:anjali:
Correct. For laity the 5 precepts are the norm for morality. But if you see the recent posts, people assume that sexualty should be abandoned in buddhism (Monks should, of course).
People are free to follow the 8 precepts, but following the 5 precepts and having sex is not bad neither.
Disciple
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by Disciple »

Mkoll wrote:Dear zamotcr,

The Buddha never said there was anything wrong with lay sex as long as you don't break the 3rd precept. No rape, seduction, prostitutes, wives, immature women, girls, etc.

But if you don't follow the precepts, you'll do whatever you want. Just know that you have to reap what you sow.

:anjali:
Where in the suttas does it say that sex with prostitutes is sexual misconduct?
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manas
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by manas »

Hi zamotcr,

maybe the folks aspiring to abstain and/or reduce sexual lust/indulgence, are doing this not because of the perception that sex is 'sinful', but rather, simply because they want stronger and deeper meditation. There's no problem with that, either.

metta,
manas. :anjali:
Last edited by manas on Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I don't fear sex, in fact I love it ... Which is the problem


Sex intensifies craving (and so clinging) to that which dies (bodies, feelings, thoughts etc)


Via celibacy we learn to detach from others and from "ourselves" and so become free from death


Sex = pain

Celibacy = freedom



If sex was happiness, you wouldn't have to do it over and over again

Sex is fleeting pleasure (anicca, dukkha, anatta) not happiness (detachment, Nibbana)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Jason
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by Jason »

Personally, I think sex is a complex thing. It's something we're naturally inclined to do, and it's something we tend to enjoy doing, reinforcing the desire.

On the upside, it's pleasurable and can strengthen already strong and intimate relationships (which may be due in large part to the complex chemical reactions that occur during and after). On the downside, it can complicate relationships and obsess our thoughts, leading to feelings of frustration, anxiety, and jealousy.

In essence, it's not evil or bad, but it's not purely wholesome, either. It's a mixed bag that we need to be careful when reaching into.

Learning to deal skillfully dealing with my own sexual desires has taken a long time, and a combination of trial and error and being mindful of what's going on inside of me. I've found that a lot of the trouble comes from the desire and the proliferations that I tend to indulge in rather than sex in and of itself.

It's kind of like when we're hungry and we begin to think of all the food we'd like to eat. How's it going to smell, taste, etc., and how enjoyable it will be to eat.

We indulge in this kind of thinking/fantasizing; but when it comes time to eat, we often eat quickly and don't really enjoy it all that much. And if we get too obsessive over our desires and plans, with the craving underlying them, we can suffer when they don't turn out the way we want. What if our partner isn't hungry yet or wants to eat something else? We can get sad or even angry.

The same is true of sex, I think. What if it's not how we wanted it to be? What if the person we want to have sex with isn't interested?

In the end, while the desire to eat and the desire for sex are both natural, they can both cause us suffering if we don't have the tools and knowledge to treat them skillfully, and for each person, that's going to vary slightly. And developing those tools and cultivating that knowledge takes time, effort, and a lot of mindfulness to see what works and what doesn't.

To me, sex should be treated like any other object of sensual desire for a lay-follower: if we're going to indulge in it, at least try to do so skillfully.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by Ceisiwr »

To me, sex should be treated like any other object of sensual desire for a lay-follower: if we're going to indulge in it, at least try to do so skillfully.
True but we should aim to be free from death. Therefore we should aim to be celibate, any compromise leads to pain.


After all lets not idolize sex and sexual partners.

Sex is the transmission of fluid, brought about by delusion and craving, nothing more

A sexual partner is a decaying mound of mucus, salaiva, sperm, eggs, proteins, oxygen, salt, feecal matter, carbon and many other chemicals. They are nothing more, nothing less.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
zamotcr
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by zamotcr »

clw_uk wrote:I don't fear sex, in fact I love it ... Which is the problem


Sex intensifies craving (and so clinging) to that which dies (bodies, feelings, thoughts etc)
Well, the same problem happens with a pie. Are you pie-celibate too?
Because leaving sex behind is not the problem, the problem is craving and clinging, and this include a lot of things more than sex.
clw_uk wrote:
Via celibacy we learn to detach from others and from "ourselves" and so become free from death

Sex = pain

Celibacy = freedom


If sex was happiness, you wouldn't have to do it over and over again

Sex is fleeting pleasure (anicca, dukkha, anatta) not happiness (detachment, Nibbana)
Pie, craving for food, desire to get a job, desire to have money for living, this is included too as part of the problem. The issue is, people here mentions only sex, and sex is just a part of the whole.
Removing sex will not remove your craving for other things. The problem is not sex, its craving and clinging...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Well, the same problem happens with a pie. Are you pie-celibate too?
Because leaving sex behind is not the problem, the problem is craving and clinging, and this include a lot of things more than sex.
So watching two guys going at it and wanking off will get me to Nibbana, who knew.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pie, craving for food, desire to get a job, desire to have money for living, this is included too as part of the problem. The issue is, people here mentions only sex, and sex is just a part of the whole.
Removing sex will not remove your craving for other things. The problem is not sex, its craving and clinging...

By not giving into wanks, blowjobs and sex you are confronted more and more with the DESIRE for sex, and so learn from the experience of wanting but not having, and how the feeling is fleeting. You therefore learn how desire is fleeting (anicca) dukkha and not you because it rises and falls. It also helps ease clinging to decaying dhammas.


Could you show where Buddha said that f*** your brains out leads to Nibbana?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
zamotcr
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Re: Whats the problem with lay sex?

Post by zamotcr »

clw_uk wrote:To me, sex should be treated like any other object of sensual desire for a lay-follower: if we're going to indulge in it, at least try to do so skillfully.
True but we should aim to be free from death. Therefore we should aim to be celibate, any compromise leads to pain.
[/quote]

The goal of the teaching of the Buddha is not only Nibbana. According to Bhikkhu Bodhi there are three goals:

1. Welfare and happiness directly visible in this present life, attained by fullfilling one's moral commitments and social responsibilities;
2. Welfare and happiness pertaining to the next life, attained by engagin in meritorious deeds;
3. The ultimate good or supreme goal, Nibbanna.

So, leaving sex will not make you free from death. Leaving sex is just a personal commitment by those who want to. But to follow this path, and to advance on it, is not needed to leave sex until you move to the Third Stage.
True, it would make your life difficult, but sex is not the only thing. If you want to be free from death, you'll have to leave tons of other things and be almost a monk. And that's ok if you want to follow 8 or 10 precepts, but is not a requirement for laity. And as I said, laity, with only 5 precepts (including sex and pie) can advance a lot.
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